Hold up - did Serana get £$#%¥ by Lord Harkon?!

[powpowboomdead]

Okay, I‘m sorry if this is in poor taste, but I have just replayed Dawnguard because I enjoy the storyline very much, but the first time I played, I was very new to the lore. It’s pretty much written in the books what Molag Bal did to her, that’s been discussed to death and back, but she made small remarks about her father, including „We all took part in [the ritual]“ - but males canonically don’t get violated by Molag Bal. Harkon sacrificed innocents in Bal‘s name, but that wasn’t part of the actual ritual, which Serana says they all took part in... If he took part in the ritual itself, with them, does that mean he hurt Serana? Is there any more canon information on this? Because boy, I‘m disturbed.

[SilentAegis]

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

Originally posted by Toast:

It's not even certain who the first vampire was. It's a legend. An origin story. Parts of it, or all of it may or may not be true. Its one of those things you have to decide for yourself. Morrowind has its own set of alternate versions of the origin of vampires, but a common theme does still seem to be some kind of corruption or defiling which results in their creation.

It may be a legend, but if you play ESO you get to meet her.

Originally posted by Toast:

You can assume whatever you like, and those assumptions probably say more about you than anything else, but the literal act itself isn't the only degrading or traumatic thing which could have taken place during whatever ritual they participated in.

I'm afraid we are accepting the story at face value, because nothing in the game gives us any reason to think otherwise.

Your insistence to think of it as metaphoric probably says more about you, than our taking it as literal says about us. We are not approving of said acts, just accepting they took place. Your refusal to accept unpleasant realities, even in a video game, unfortunately speaks volumes.

Just to clarify, while I fully accept these events took place, I don't approve of them, I think they are a touch unnecessary, but give us a legitimate reason to hate Harkon (as much as you can hate a collection of pixels).
I would rather they had a less brutal history to the Vampires in game, but since that history has been in place for quite a few games, and has been in the ingame books, this extension to it was inevitable.

Evidence, then? Why do you assert the event in question went down the way you think it went down?

EDIT: Since the lore of the Elder Scrolls isn't always very clear at all, we are comparing "head-canons" here, which would make this discussion more in the realm of subjectivity if anything. Just to note.

[powpowboomdead]

If Bethesda had been any clearer on this, we would have had the game go as x-rated

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by A Toilet:

Originally posted by alexander_dougherty:

It may be a legend, but if you play ESO you get to meet her.



I'm afraid we are accepting the story at face value, because nothing in the game gives us any reason to think otherwise.

Your insistence to think of it as metaphoric probably says more about you, than our taking it as literal says about us. We are not approving of said acts, just accepting they took place. Your refusal to accept unpleasant realities, even in a video game, unfortunately speaks volumes.

Just to clarify, while I fully accept these events took place, I don't approve of them, I think they are a touch unnecessary, but give us a legitimate reason to hate Harkon (as much as you can hate a collection of pixels).
I would rather they had a less brutal history to the Vampires in game, but since that history has been in place for quite a few games, and has been in the ingame books, this extension to it was inevitable.

Evidence, then? Why do you assert the event in question went down the way you think it went down?

The ingame books state the first vampire was created when Molag Bal raped her. (these have been in games at least since Morrowind)
Serena tells you Harkon took part in the Ritual.
Harkon tells you that Molag Bal takes part in Ritual, and creates Daughters of Coldharbour himself.
Valencia tells you she took part, had the same thing done to her, and Neither one could have refused the privelege.
If you try to court Serena she tells you she was abused by her father and can't bring herself to that sort of relationship ever again. (she doesn't say what Harkon did, just abused)

Several posts in this thread even give you the exact lines used.

Given you know how Vampires were created, and Volkihar Vampires are closer to the original vampire in nature. It's very hard not to read between the lines, and see exactly what is not being said.
If this was real life we would be told are line of questioning was itself hurtful, and to leave Serena alone.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by Liliana:

If Bethesda had been any clearer on this, we would have had the game go as x-rated

I think I said as much myself earlier, so I have to agree, you can only go so far before you run into legal issues.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by Toast:

There is a popular story about an apple falling on Isaac Newton's head inspiring his theory of gravity, Even though Isaac Newton did in fact exist, and did in fact formulate a theory of gravity, the story as it is presented is almost certainly NOT true, although there may be some truth or significance and therefore value to be found in it, which is probably why it persists.

There is a popular story about Trinimac being swallowed by Boethiah and then defecated as Malacath. Even though Malacath exists, he claims that the story as it is presented is not to be taken so literally. The reason it persists is probably because there is some truth or significance in it, and therefore it has value.

There is a popular story about about the famous general George Washington chopping down a cherry tree. Even though George Washington did in fact exist, did later ascend to be the first president of the United States, and did in fact lead and inspire people as a heroic figure in spite of the flawed man he actually was, the story as it is presented is almost certainly NOT true, although there may be some truth or significance and therefore value to be found in it, which is probably why it persists.

There are many popular stories about the famous general Talos, (aka Tiber Septim), who later ascended to be the first emperor of a fully united Tamriel, and eventually ascended to Godhood. Even though Tiber Septim did in fact exist, and did in fact lead and inspire people as a heroic figure in spite of the flawed man he actually was, the stories as they are presented are almost certainly NOT true, although there may be some truth or significance and therefore value to be found in them, which is probably why they persist.

Nobody is saying all stories are true, or that no stories is metaphorical.
What most of us are saying is that you have to judge the evidence provided under it's own merits.

Have we questioned exactly what happened? Yes.
Have we examined the evidence? yes we have.
Have we thought about which if any parts are metaphorical, and which are literal? again yes.

And most of us have come to the conclusion that while circumlocutions are used, it's all pretty much literal. Serena had the worst possible scenario play out on her, which pretty much sucks. There is very little chance of it being metaphorical, given Molag Bal is also the prince of Brutality, he literally revels in physically destroying his victims, he simply would not be satisfied with mind games and illusions.

We wish it had been more metaphorical, but sadly conclude it wasn't.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by Toast:

Hey, I'll take it. Post hoc, ad hoc, or whatever. I can see that you're bargaining, and I don't mind at all. At least we're getting somewhere. These are your own conclusions. Admitting that is progress.

Baby steps. If you'd like to continue, we can move on to addressing your obvious conflation. Your choice. I'm quite happy to let it go at this point. Cheers.

My conclusion based on the EVIDENCE. There is too much evidence that runs contrary to the idea that what happened was metaphorical.

I'll admit the evidence is circumstancial, but there is plenty of it.

[powpowboomdead]

I think no amount of arguing can get through to what the naysayers call „freespirited thinking“; it’s honestly not a bad trail of thought and VERY useful for real life affairs, especially in the philosophical or even more so in scientific fields where you are supposed to question everything that’s not cold hard evidence, but when it comes to fiction... Well. Let’s say one specific work of fiction is just too finite for that to work, really. When a not x-rated game includes dark or disturbing content, it gives implications as to what happens, and the writers rely on the pieces being placed in a way that completes a puzzle for the viewer which delivers their message. But it won’t work on people who refuse to adjust their thought pattern to fictional scenarios. It’s the same sort of people who think people who enjoy darkly dramatic or disturbing media are actually latently violent. They cannot be convinced. In real life affairs, their thinking is rational.

[DrNewcenstein]

Apparently many of you are reluctant, for whatever personal reason, to accept the notion that Serana was sexually assaulted by a Daedric Lord who does that sort of thing, or that she may have been sexually assaulted by her own father either before or after that, and that Harkon may have willingly taken Molag Bal's junk into his trunk.

I don't care what those personal reasons are. You're cherry-picking which part of the lore is factual and which is metaphorical just to soothe your personal wounds, or to get over your own personal hangups about Serana based on her looks and her voice-actor. If she was an Orc female with a male voice actor, you'd accept her story at face value.

"Violated" doesn't mean "he made me feel bad about myself using harsh words and inappropriate touching" like it does here on Earth, but literally "male reproductive organ forced into bodily orifices". There's nothing metaphorical about it.

Daedric worshippers are a religious cult who do not subscribe to Earth-based Christian morals where it's wrong for a father to have sex with his own daughter. This is a completely not-Earth-related universe. Do not apply any Earth-based "logic" to any of it, especially the religious aspects. For followers of Molag Bal, those things could be commonplace and part of their culture.

Daedric Lords can and do manifest in Mundus at-will. Mehrunes Dagon did not need Oblivion Gates to enter Tamriel, he needed them to merge Tamriel with his plane of Oblivion.
Sanguine manifests in the flesh, though he does alter his physical appearance to be humanoid, as it's part of his shtick. If he just pops in as full Daedric, he's either got people worshipping without question or fleeing in terror, and neither one of those is his brand of fun. He prefers corrupting people's morals, preferably through some trickery (i.e. let's have a drinking contest, and then you wake up married to a goat)
According to in-game books, Sheogorath has appeared as himself in the flesh.
According to in-game books, both Azura and Nocturnal have physically manifested in rituals in their honor on their "Summoning Day". Such was the case with Molag Bal.
Hircine has also been made physical on his Summoning Day, according to in-game lore.


Unless you can point out a vanilla in-game book or dialog that backs it up, whatever any fan-made WIKI pages say is never allowed to be interjected as lore. I don't care if Todd wrote it, I don't care if Kirkbride wrote it, if it's not in the game, it's not lore.

Let me clarify that just a little further: if you dig through the Creation Kit, you find test files, discarded works, incomplete works, and variants and duplicates and other references that were intentionally not placed in the game world. Since they are not "in-game", they are not canon, and they are not part of the lore.

[powpowboomdead]

DrNewcenstein, thank you for that contribution. Thank you SO MUCH. This is the common sense I needed.

And just to clarify, I personally don’t have hangups about thinking Harkon took it from a Daedric Prince, I just thought because it was specified females were offered to Molag Bal, it meant: females were the only ones going through that sort of ritual; I might have just gotten the wrong message. I am well aware Molag Bal doesn’t really care about gender due to reading into his veeery extensive lore, but I thought it was a clear statement in the game. Or rather, as clear as it gets. it being an option is obviously a thing. I mean honestly, Skyrim lore is generally preeeetty messy and those faint of heart better not pick up too many books. I started open world gaming with FO4 which is very, very tame in comparison. I must say, Skyrim‘s more layered feel appeals to me more, but I digress.

[alexander_dougherty]

It is rare for DrNewcenstein and I to agree, but I have tried to say the same thing, although not as well.

[فاطمة]

You should try Oblivion next if you enjoyed Skyrim Liliana, it's stuffed with things to read see and do.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by مغرية لهب:

You should try Oblivion next if you enjoyed Skyrim Liliana, it's stuffed with things to read see and do.

Better guild quests too.