Hold up - did Serana get £$#%¥ by Lord Harkon?!

[powpowboomdead]

Okay, I‘m sorry if this is in poor taste, but I have just replayed Dawnguard because I enjoy the storyline very much, but the first time I played, I was very new to the lore. It’s pretty much written in the books what Molag Bal did to her, that’s been discussed to death and back, but she made small remarks about her father, including „We all took part in [the ritual]“ - but males canonically don’t get violated by Molag Bal. Harkon sacrificed innocents in Bal‘s name, but that wasn’t part of the actual ritual, which Serana says they all took part in... If he took part in the ritual itself, with them, does that mean he hurt Serana? Is there any more canon information on this? Because boy, I‘m disturbed.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by Starchild:

Okay, I‘m sorry if this is in poor taste, but I have just replayed Dawnguard because I enjoy the storyline very much, but the first time I played, I was very new to the lore. It’s pretty much written in the books what Molag Bal did to her, that’s been discussed to death and back, but she made small remarks about her father, including „We all took part in [the ritual]“ - but males canonically don’t get violated by Molag Bal. Harkon sacrificed innocents in Bal‘s name, but that wasn’t part of the actual ritual, which Serana says they all took part in... If he took part in the ritual itself, with them, does that mean he hurt Serana? Is there any more canon information on this? Because boy, I‘m disturbed.

Where does it says the men don't get abused by Molag Bal?
I ask because he seems to be the sort to abuse everyone.

That said I always took it as written that Harkon took part, he was a religious nutter, so abusing his own daughter during a ritual fits the pattern.

But unless someone has written a book with the details in, the snippets we get in the game are all we have to go on. And somehow I doubt Bethesda would want someone writing a detailed description of that particular rite.

[Xenos]

I'm no loremaster, but I'm fairly sure Harkon didn't "do it" with Serana. Vampirism is Molag Bal sticking it to the aedra of death by removing death. In order to become a vampire, one must submit to Molag Bal, which means exactly what you think. Anyone that becomes a true vampire, male or female, gets "it" from Bal. I highly doubt he would let a mere human dominate instead of him.

[JDaremo Fireheart]

LOL, no he didn't. The sharing of blood to a vampire is just as intimate as "doing it"

[powpowboomdead]

It‘s said that only females are offered to Molag Bal during the ritual.
And, well, I sort of agree that he wouldn’t let a mere mortal do the Whole Thing FOR him, but there’s extreme power in being able to make someone hurt their own child. And well, he‘s the King of Rape, it’s not a far jump. ... But let’s not get into that, I‘m not sure how sfw this forum ought to be. Plus, that goes too far from what‘s said in canon anyway. Some remarks Serana makes about Harkon just rubbed me the wrong way.

[فاطمة]

Well since Molag Bal is confirmed to have beaten raped and mentally broken the very first vampire he created, yeah not a hard logic leap to realise he also repeated the process to a slightly lesser degree to every other "pure" blood vampire he created. male and female alike. also Harkon did nothing to her, the issues there stem from watching her father go slowly insane for centuries as well as her family just breaking away from each other.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by مغرية لهب:

Well since Molag Bal is confirmed to have beaten raped and mentally broken the very first vampire he created, yeah not a hard logic leap to realise he also repeated the process to a slightly lesser degree to every other "pure" blood vampire he created. male and female alike. also Harkon did nothing to her, the issues there stem from watching her father go slowly insane for centuries as well as her family just breaking away from each other.

You may want to look at the rite of coldhabour again, it is tacitly implied that she was raped by Molag Bal. If the hint was any stronger the whole plotline would probably been canned.

[JDaremo Fireheart]

Originally posted by مغرية لهب:

Well since Molag Bal is confirmed to have beaten raped and mentally broken the very first vampire he created, yeah not a hard logic leap to realise he also repeated the process to a slightly lesser degree to every other "pure" blood vampire he created. male and female alike. also Harkon did nothing to her, the issues there stem from watching her father go slowly insane for centuries as well as her family just breaking away from each other.

Kinda reminds me of the Graduation Ceremony for Drow Priestesses . . .

[powpowboomdead]

Well, I know there was parental neglect, that was very blatant. But the fact he very clearly took part in the ritual but wasn’t made a vampire the same way as the females really is a bit questionable.

[فاطمة]

Harkon scacrifised i think it was a thousand? of his peoples souls to molag as his "Admission fee" for immortality (heavily summing that up), Val & Ser had to do it the hard way.

[powpowboomdead]

Nono, I know, I mentioned it up there. He still took part in the ritual itself, though; that’s what Serana said, that is.

[DrNewcenstein]

Lamae Bal did to the men of the village what Molag Bal did to her, so Pure Blood Vampire females can pass Pure Vampirism onto males. Which means after Valerica got hammered by M.B., she rode Harkon like a race horse while M.B. poked Serana.

Typically, Vampirism stops you from aging, so whatever age you were when you got it, you're always there, which is why Serana doesn't look a day over 21, yet Harkon and Valerica are both at least twice that.
What gets me is that most of Harkon's court have BatFace like regular "diseased" vampires. One would assume he would have only had "Pure" Vampires in his court. Some are, some aren't.

[Valden21]

Originally posted by Liliana:

Nono, I know, I mentioned it up there. He still took part in the ritual itself, though; that’s what Serana said, that is.

I'm guessing that Molag Bal's male worshippers have specific parts to play in the ritual in question, but in a different capacity. Molag Bal's whole thing is control, after all; he wouldn't want any acts of that sort to go on without his approval/knowledge, and he's DEFINITELY the sort of individual to want to do that on his own, without involvement from anybody else, so there's no way he would let it happen. He would use other methods.

quote=DrNewcenstein;1776010325117555831]Lamae Bal did to the men of the village what Molag Bal did to her, so Pure Blood Vampire females can pass Pure Vampirism onto males. Which means after Valerica got hammered by M.B., she rode Harkon like a race horse while M.B. poked Serana.

Typically, Vampirism stops you from aging, so whatever age you were when you got it, you're always there, which is why Serana doesn't look a day over 21, yet Harkon and Valerica are both at least twice that.
What gets me is that most of Harkon's court have BatFace like regular "diseased" vampires. One would assume he would have only had "Pure" Vampires in his court. Some are, some aren't. [/quote]

I'm sorry to say, but according to UESP, you're wrong about how Harkon became a vampire. The entries for both Harkon and for Molag Bal state that Harkon became a vampire through a pact with Molag Bal. Besides Molag Bal's entry mentions that Lamae Bal actually killed everyone in that village.

[Sly-Scale]

Molag Bal is a pretty off-color Daedric Prince. Among his many names, the Prince of Rape is among them. And yes, he's the father/creator of vampires.

What the OP is raising questions about is well within the God of Schemes' inclination.

[SilentAegis]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Harkon didn't do anything like THAT to Serana. What remarks are you talking about specifically? Because I've played Dawnguard multiple times now and I always thought that Serana was turned from being assaulted by Molag Bal. Honestly, I also thought Harkon was assaulted in the same way (Molag Bal's past with Vivec would denote he wouldn't care about that kind of thing), but Valerica states that only the FEMALES were offered to him, so I threw that rather disturbing theory away. And then the wiki states he just killed 1,000 innocent people in Molag Bal's name to gain vampirism.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by Toast:

A lot of stuff in the lore isn't actually literal. Just saying. It's very frequently NOT literal at all.
Sometimes it's metaphorical, especially when you are dealing with the god-like spirits.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but supposedly Vivec allowed himself to be violated extensively by Molag Bal, and I'm pretty sure that almost none of that story was literal, and a good chunk of it was lies intent on favorably bending the actual truth.

I wouldn't be so sure on Vivec's violation being metaphorical. Given the lore prior to Morrowind was definately more x-rated, it seems likely it was more literal than metaphorical.

Also keep in mind that Aedra and Daedra are not fully "real" in the same sense that things on the mortal plane are, and although Daedra essentially have infinite power in their own planes, manifesting on Nirn necessarily means accepting limitations.

Not quite, the Deadera are prevented from fully manifesting on the mortal plane, but have never accepted this. And given the nature of several of the Daedric Princes, I would say even a limited debauchery would appeal more than a metaphorical debauchery.