The Blades: Justifiable or Not?

[sheesh1991]

So, this has been brewing on my mind for YEARS ever since my first playthrough of Skyrim. I listened to Delphine and Esbern’s reasons, I’ve heard their claims, and I’ve weighed the options they gave the Dragonborn regarding the elimination of Paarthurnax. And I’ve come to the conclusion...that the Blades have strayed far from their TRUE purpose.
A bit of lore. The Blades are descendants and successors of the former and defunct Dragonguard, the Akaviri faction that was bent on eliminating all dragons from Nirn. The Dragonguard accomplished this, and eventually disbanded, SUPPOSEDLY! But that’s not entirely true. You see, they had another purpose: supporting and protecting the Dragonborn emperors and dedicating their lives to the Throne.
Once their goal of eliminating dragons was complete, the Dragonguard in essence disbanded, but some of the more devote members reformed the defunct group of Dragonborn loyalists into The Blades. The Blades are the Dragonborn’s bodyguards, protectors of the ones born with the Dragon Blood; regardless of whether or not the Dragonborn is an Emperor of the Empire. The Blades duties...are to SERVE the Dragonborn. Their responsibilities are to devote their lives to protecting the Dragonborn...they are the Dragonborn’s elite force of bodyguards.
Delphine and Esbern...have forgotten that fact. Being that a Dragonborn hadn’t been seen for centuries, it can be overlooked that they may not remember what the Blades truly stood for. BUT!! Esbern in fact, remembers this. He clearly states that The Blades used to be called the Dragonguard. HE REMEMBERS that The Blades SERVED the Dragonborn. HE REMEMBERS that regardless of royal blood or not, The Blades devoted their lives to the one born with the Dragon Blood. ESBERN KNOWS!!!
And yet...because the Dragonborn as seen in Skyrim is still practically new to being the fabled and legendary Dragonborn, he disregards those facts. He believes that the Dragonborn is naive enough to follow his and Delphine’s advice because they helped set the Dragonborn down the right path to eventually defeating Alduin.
And to that extent, Esbern is ultimately playing the Dragonborn for a fool. Delphine is just a warrior devoted to an old belief that The Blades were dragonslayers just like the Dragonborn. But Esbern...oh no. HE KNOWS WELL ENOUGH. But because the Dragonborn is still new to the idea of being a fabled hero, he takes advantage of that fact, and plays along with Delphine. And ultimately, HE is the true mastermind behind the initiative of exterminating all dragons from Skyrim, and Nirn, regardless of their alignment. He is not serving the Dragonborn...he is COMMANDING the Dragonborn, not the other way around.
And THAT...is why I firmly believe you SHOULD NOT trust Esbern and Delphine. They are simply taking advantage of the Dragonborn. They’re not fulfilling their duties as The Blades, they have cast those duties aside and instead assumed the responsibility of setting the Dragonborn down a path of murder and chaos. Sure! The majority of dragons are evil...but that does not justify their reasoning behind demanding the Dragonborn to kill Paarthurnax. They’ve gone and overstepped their duties. They see themselves as the Dragonborn’s leaders...not the Dragonborn’s loyal bodyguards, as is their inherent and ancient duty.
Delphine and Esbern...are traitors to The Blades. They are not justified in demanding the Dragonborn kill the one who TAUGHT the Dragonborn how to truly use their Voice and harness it’s power. They are the ones who shouldn’t be welcome in Sky Haven Temple...not the Dragonborn.
Just listen to Paarthurnax’s own defense of himself...and you will see what I mean.

But, tell me what you think! Are The Blades justified? Is their reason for demanding you to kill Paarthurnax justifiable? Is it their place to even demand the Dragonborn of such a task? Let’s hear your thoughts!

[JDaremo Fireheart]

I like them right up until they ask me to kill Paarth. I used a mod to alter that parth so he didn't have to die. Not right he should have to. They want him dead out of blind hatred and nothing more.

[Malsvir Ixen]

All Dragons must die so I can gain more and more power.

[JDaremo Fireheart]

well, since they just keep spawning there's plenty to give you power. you don't get Paarth's soul anyway

[fauxpas]

The question of whether the Blades are justified or not doesn't change the fact that the 'right' thing to do is to make the hard choice and kill Paar; but with a heavy heart and a troubled mind.


Doing the "right thing" is seldom easy and it can leave a sour taste in one's mouth; but the Last Dragonborn is the only one able to do it so she must.

[Rick The Punisher]

nope nope, gotta unsub to that right now

[alexander_dougherty]

I can't say they are justified. Paarthurnax did some questionable things back the, but he has tried to make amends since then, and actively helps you. Esbern and Delphine's arguement boils down to "He killed some Blades hundreds of years ago", which given that the Blades (or possibly the Dragonguard back then) were hunting dragons is sheer sour grapes. It would have been him defending himself against a sheer mob of idiot dragonhunters, who didn't even ask "Why are we trying to kill a Dragon that isn't killing people".

Given the Blades themselves were not above using former criminals to do their work for them, the inability to forgive someone just because they happen to be a Dragon is inexcusable. I would have had more respect if they said "Paarthurnax is slowly losing his fight against his inner nature" rather than "He killed our ancestors, the blood of hundreds of Blades calls out for his death".

As I have said before in other threads, I will give Paarthurnax the benefit of the doubt, until he acts in a manner that shows he has reverted to his ancient draconic ways I will not kill him.

[Eternie]

Even Paarthanax makes a clear statement "What is better to To fight your own nature ever day for a thousand years for a better life or to not Or to have never sinned and not know the effort it takes.
Without Paarthanax humanity would not have known shouts and not had the ability to fight against dragons. It was only through Paarthanax that the heros of olden days were able to fight against Alduin. So I would say Paarthanax has earnt his right to survive.

For me from playing Morrowind and Oblivion the Blades were a highly respected order ... but meeting with the disgruntled Delphine as a representative of what I considered a respected order. Though I do despise the Thalmer I would be tempted to betray Delphine to them.

For me Esbern doesn't have as much hatred for Paarthanax as does delphine. He is more interested in researching histories. His focus is Parthanax is mentioned in a book so to him that is the law that should be followed. However he would take direction from the dragonborn if not for Delphine.

[sheesh1991]

Originally posted by Eternie:

Even Paarthanax makes a clear statement "What is better to To fight your own nature ever day for a thousand years for a better life or to not Or to have never sinned and not know the effort it takes.
Without Paarthanax humanity would not have known shouts and not had the ability to fight against dragons. It was only through Paarthanax that the heros of olden days were able to fight against Alduin. So I would say Paarthanax has earnt his right to survive.

For me from playing Morrowind and Oblivion the Blades were a highly respected order ... but meeting with the disgruntled Delphine as a representative of what I considered a respected order. Though I do despise the Thalmer I would be tempted to betray Delphine to them.

For me Esbern doesn't have as much hatred for Paarthanax as does delphine. He is more interested in researching histories. His focus is Parthanax is mentioned in a book so to him that is the law that should be followed. However he would take direction from the dragonborn if not for Delphine.

All very true...except for one tiny detail. Esbern states that the reason Paarthurnax must die is the simple fact that Paarthurnax USED to be Alduin's righthand "man", and helped in the slaughter of thousands. It wasn't The Blades ancestors that dragons were killing, we're talking about CENTURIES before the Dragonguard.
Esbern and Delphine want Paarthurnax dead because, "Oh, Alduin has returned, so there's an ever small chance that Paarthurnax will remember his past and return to his old ways. So, he has to die! End of discussion."
BS. He said it himself, is it better to overcome ones' nature every day for the rest of their life? Or to never know what it is to sin? Sure, you get a perk from killing Paarthurnax, but that's it. If Esbern and Delphine were ever before Paarthurnax, and hopefully they'd be mature enough to not immediately attack him, he would show them the error of their belief, and how oh so wrong they are in demanding the Dragonborn to kill his own teacher.

[Valden21]

I don't think the Blades are justified in demanding Paarthurnax's death at all. Without him, it's likely that humanity would never have even learned how to use the Thu'um in the first place. Apart from that, sure, there's a chance that he might go evil again, considering that he's a dragon. But it's a very small chance, almost a quantum of a chance, and considering that he sided with humanity way back in the First Era, and hasn't changed sides since, we're talking thousands of years that he's been a good guy. If he's been resisting his own basic nature for THAT long, he can continue to resist for perhaps the rest of time. Being a dragon, he's got that long.

As for Delphine, her reasoning for the stance she takes basically boils down to "He's a dragon, so he's evil. Go kill him". Nuh-uh. That's Thalmor reasoning, Delphine. Ain't gonna do it.

[sheesh1991]

Originally posted by Valden21:

I don't think the Blades are justified in demanding Paarthurnax's death at all. Without him, it's likely that humanity would never have even learned how to use the Thu'um in the first place. Apart from that, sure, there's a chance that he might go evil again, considering that he's a dragon. But it's a very small part, and considering that he sided with humanity way back in the First Era, and hasn't changed sides since, we're talking thousands of years that he's been a good guy. If he's been resisting his own basic nature for THAT long, he can continue to resist for perhaps the rest of time. Being a dragon, he's got that long.

As for Delphine, her reasoning for the stance she takes basically boils down to "He's a dragon, so he's evil. Go kill him". Nuh-uh. Ain't gonna do it.

Hella true. This is pretty much why I despise Delphine with a burning passion.
However, it wasn't during the First Era that he sided with humanity. It was way back in the Merethic Era, during the Dragon War that he and a few other dragons sided with humanity to banish Alduin and overthrow the Dragon Priests.
Paarthurnax is just as much of a hero as the nords are, not just for helping to save humanity but also for overcoming his more evil and tyrannical nature. But no, that apparently means nothing to Delphine and Esbern. They'd rather put an end to a millennia of peaceful teachings to the Greybeards that Paarthurnax helped found.
The Blades have lost sight of who they really are, and therefore should not be trusted.

[shoopy]

Without Alduin around, Paarthurnax is just another dragon. No real point in killing him so long as he stays on his mountain.

[Valden21]

Originally posted by sheesh1991:

Originally posted by Valden21:

I don't think the Blades are justified in demanding Paarthurnax's death at all. Without him, it's likely that humanity would never have even learned how to use the Thu'um in the first place. Apart from that, sure, there's a chance that he might go evil again, considering that he's a dragon. But it's a very small part, and considering that he sided with humanity way back in the First Era, and hasn't changed sides since, we're talking thousands of years that he's been a good guy. If he's been resisting his own basic nature for THAT long, he can continue to resist for perhaps the rest of time. Being a dragon, he's got that long.

As for Delphine, her reasoning for the stance she takes basically boils down to "He's a dragon, so he's evil. Go kill him". Nuh-uh. Ain't gonna do it.

Hella true. This is pretty much why I despise Delphine with a burning passion.
However, it wasn't during the First Era that he sided with humanity. It was way back in the Merethic Era, during the Dragon War that he and a few other dragons sided with humanity to banish Alduin and overthrow the Dragon Priests.
Paarthurnax is just as much of a hero as the nords are, not just for helping to save humanity but also for overcoming his more evil and tyrannical nature. But no, that apparently means nothing to Delphine and Esbern. They'd rather put an end to a millennia of peaceful teachings to the Greybeards that Paarthurnax helped found.
The Blades have lost sight of who they really are, and therefore should not be trusted.

Oh, so he's been a good guy for even longer than I originally thought.

[red255]

it doesn't matter who the blades are. all that matters is if the action of killing parth is right.

so lets use Nazis, lets say Alduin was hitler and Parth was Hitler's right hand man. Then stuff happens Parth makes a deal with the allies and joins them actively leading to Hitler's demise.

Now some time has passed and Hitler has returned.

enough time has passed that the exact nature of the deal is lost. but Alduin was supposed to be lost to time. Dead. his coming back could be viewed as a calculated bet. He's not dead as per the deal, and they instead accepted the next best thing, lost to time. except he's not lost to time because he returned.

Like if instead of killing hitler, the guy just put him in a time warp for some time saying we can't kill him but this is the next best thing because we'll never see him again, then some time later he returns, seeing him again and voiding the deal.

so on the nature of the deal, the deal is void and Parth's life is forfeit for betraying the Dragonguard's deal.

Is the Blades stance.

The alternate stance is the deal was entered into by good faith by both sides. things didn't work out as intended and Parth is allowed to make a new deal, aiding the dragonborn to kill Alduin

It all hinges on whether or not you feel Parth initially acted on the deal in good faith.

[alexander_dougherty]

Originally posted by red255:

it doesn't matter who the blades are. all that matters is if the action of killing parth is right.

so lets use Nazis, lets say Alduin was hitler and Parth was Hitler's right hand man. Then stuff happens Parth makes a deal with the allies and joins them actively leading to Hitler's demise.

Now some time has passed and Hitler has returned.

enough time has passed that the exact nature of the deal is lost. but Alduin was supposed to be lost to time. Dead. his coming back could be viewed as a calculated bet. He's not dead as per the deal, and they instead accepted the next best thing, lost to time. except he's not lost to time because he returned.

Like if instead of killing hitler, the guy just put him in a time warp for some time saying we can't kill him but this is the next best thing because we'll never see him again, then some time later he returns, seeing him again and voiding the deal.

so on the nature of the deal, the deal is void and Parth's life is forfeit for betraying the Dragonguard's deal.

Is the Blades stance.

The alternate stance is the deal was entered into by good faith by both sides. things didn't work out as intended and Parth is allowed to make a new deal, aiding the dragonborn to kill Alduin

It all hinges on whether or not you feel Parth initially acted on the deal in good faith.

Except even the Blades know that Alduin is unkillable, it's literally part of the religion, nobody though he was dead, just banished until the end of time. Dragonborn doesn't actually kill him, just defeats him and Akatosh seals him away.

And the banishing involved an Elder Scroll, so there were always doubts about for how long Alduin was banished. Paarthurnax didn't even come up with the scheme, the heroes did, he just helped them. So putting all that at Paarthurnax's feet is ridiculous.

This line of reasoning is flawed, and I reject it.

[Shedding my mortal skin]

The post-Great War Blades don't seem to care about anything other than killing dragons. Delphine sees the Dragonborn as a tool, a weapon, made clear when she says the Greybeards would have you sit on a mountain and worship the gods, even though Arnegir says that, since you are the Dragonborn, you don't have to follow the Way of the Voice because your Thu'um was a birthright rather than a gift.

I choose to never kill Paarthurnax (even going as far as to install mods that prevent it) because while the Paarthurnax and the Greybeards want an era of peace, the Blades want to cast blood from their rage.