Achieving CHIM does not make you a divine.

[The Vindicator]

TIBER SEPTIM was a powerful man and managed to learn powerful magic, this does not make one of divine blood. The whole point of being divine to be the direct resulted creation of Anui-El and to be immortal of which Tiber Septim is not, and suffered a mortal's death just like any man or mer or beastfolk. The only reason why the Aedra cannot physically manifest like Deadra can, is because they sacrificed much of their power including their physical form the create Nirn. Yet even after their "physical deaths", their influence can still be felt across the world, Tiber Septim's cannot. At best, Tiber Septim was an incredibly powerful sorcerer of sorts, perhaps conjuration and alteration school?

[fauxpas]

Umm; what exactly do you think happens when you pray at one of his altars?


Also if you want a more recent example of "walking the path" and becoming a divine being; look no further than the Hero of Kavieth and the Shivering Isles.

[The Vindicator]

Opprinnelig skrevet av fauxpas:

Umm; what exactly do you think happens when you pray at one of his altars?


Also if you want a more recent example of "walking the path" and becoming a divine being; look no further than the Hero of Kavieth and the Shivering Isles.

Shrines mean nothing, they are made and enchanted by the very priests around them. I could make a shrine of cheeseburgers, and then enchant it to get the blessing of cheeseburgers. Also they are their for gameplay purposes. Lorewise shrines are a big con, how many of those infected by vampirism or lycanthropy; do you think have prayed to those shrines, but then nothing happens and they still end up becoming vampires or werewolves.

As for the Hero of Kvatch, it is ASSUMED he mantled Sheogorath, but it is not confirmed. That being said, even if he did become a god, this has nothing to do with Tiber Septim.

[fauxpas]

Opprinnelig skrevet av The Vindicator:

Shrines mean nothing, they are made and enchanted by the very priests around them. I could make a shrine of cheeseburgers, and then enchant it to get the blessing of cheeseburgers. Also they are their for gameplay purposes. Lorewise shrines are a big con, how many of those infected by vampirism or lycanthropy; do you think have prayed to those shrines, but then nothing happens and they still end up becoming vampires or werewolves.

As for the Hero of Kvatch, it is ASSUMED he mantled Sheogorath, but it is not confirmed. That being said, even if he did become a god, this has nothing to do with Tiber Septim.

Uh-huh; how much more confirmed do you need than being laughingly told that you are worshipping yourself?


And you ever wonder why Skyrim wasn't overrun by vampires and werewolfs? Its because the majority of the victims do get cured before its too late; whether that is through a spell; potion; or by being important enough to warrent an immortal's attention when you pray at their shrine.



However; none of that really matters as "Word of God" has gone into what CHIM means.

[The Vindicator]

Wtf are

Opprinnelig skrevet av fauxpas:

Opprinnelig skrevet av The Vindicator:

Shrines mean nothing, they are made and enchanted by the very priests around them. I could make a shrine of cheeseburgers, and then enchant it to get the blessing of cheeseburgers. Also they are their for gameplay purposes. Lorewise shrines are a big con, how many of those infected by vampirism or lycanthropy; do you think have prayed to those shrines, but then nothing happens and they still end up becoming vampires or werewolves.

As for the Hero of Kvatch, it is ASSUMED he mantled Sheogorath, but it is not confirmed. That being said, even if he did become a god, this has nothing to do with Tiber Septim.

Uh-huh; how much more confirmed do you need than being laughingly told that you are worshipping yourself?


And you ever wonder why Skyrim wasn't overrun by vampires and werewolfs? Its because the majority of the victims do get cured before its too late; whether that is through a spell; potion; or by being important enough to warrent an immortal's attention when you pray at their shrine.



However; none of that really matters as "Word of God" has gone into what CHIM means.

First line, wtf are you even talking about. And what do you mean that skyrim isn't overrun with werewolfs and vampires, werewolfs maybe not so, but have you even played dawnguard? Literally everytime you travel to a city it gets attacked by a pack of vampires. So much so infact that even the guards say "these vampires are becoming a real menace". Most people in skyrim will not get cured of their diesease because they do not trust magic. Most will not be cured by an aedra at the shrine as they are nothing but commoners, this may explain why dragonborn gets "blessings", because he is dragonborn and not some run of the mill farmer. This only leaves the way of being cured by potion, but i don't believe that large quantities of these potions are exactly accessible to the populace as there are too many vampires running about.

Oh and CHIM doesnt mean word of god, but "royalty, starlight, and high splendor".

[fauxpas]

Opprinnelig skrevet av The Vindicator:

First line, wtf are you even talking about. And what do you mean that skyrim isn't overrun with werewolfs and vampires, werewolfs maybe not so, but have you even played dawnguard? Literally everytime you travel to a city it gets attacked by a pack of vampires. So much so infact that even the guards say "these vampires are becoming a real menace". Most people in skyrim will not get cured of their diesease because they do not trust magic. Most will not be cured by an aedra at the shrine as they are nothing but commoners, this may explain why dragonborn gets "blessings", because he is dragonborn and not some run of the mill farmer. This only leaves the way of being cured by potion, but i don't believe that large quantities of these potions are exactly accessible to the populace as there are too many vampires running about.

Those attacks are being set up by an ancient vampire lord and the fact that they pretty much stop once he's out of the picture shows that rampant vampire attacks are not the norm.

Opprinnelig skrevet av The Vindicator:

Oh and CHIM doesnt mean word of god, but "royalty, starlight, and high splendor".

You're right; now lets look at what those words actually mean in TES Lore ... CHIM allows you to shape the very fabric of creation itself by entering a state that is beyond even that which the original immortal spirits were capable of achieving. ... Calling CHIM the "word of God" actually lessens it.

[fauxpas]

Oh; and just to clear up a possible misunderstanding; "Word of God" is a phrase that refers to the author of a work.

[The Vindicator]

To say that every vampire attack is perpetrated by Lord Harkon is nothing short of generalizing. Might i remind you that The Volkihar Clan, is only ONE clan of vampires. Surely not every single vampire in skyrim hails from a single clan.

Again as i have said before, CHIM seems to be a school of alteration or conjuration, a powerful form of it, yet still magic that can be achieved by those who practice hard enough. Calling it a word of god actually exaggerates it, for if even a mortal like Tiber Septim can achieve it, than anyone has the ability to do so. The whole point of being divine is that you are inherently superior to mortal beings, that which Tiber Septim always was.

[Falro the Great]

Problem is, Tiber Septim was never mortal. He was an aspect of Shor (a Shezzarine), so he never was a man, he was always a God.

[alexander_dougherty]

Opprinnelig skrevet av The Vindicator:

TIBER SEPTIM was a powerful man and managed to learn powerful magic, this does not make one of divine blood. The whole point of being divine to be the direct resulted creation of Anui-El and to be immortal of which Tiber Septim is not, and suffered a mortal's death just like any man or mer or beastfolk. The only reason why the Aedra cannot physically manifest like Deadra can, is because they sacrificed much of their power including their physical form the create Nirn. Yet even after their "physical deaths", their influence can still be felt across the world, Tiber Septim's cannot. At best, Tiber Septim was an incredibly powerful sorcerer of sorts, perhaps conjuration and alteration school?

You are confusing being a God with being one of the Divines, in the Elder scrolls universe a God is an immortal powerful being who can influence reality, a Divine is more powerful Aedra (the less powerful ones became Aldmeri).

By achieving CHIM, Tiber Septim became a god, this was confirmed by Oblivion, which actually called him a Divine incidently, for if he wasn't a God then his blood would not have allowed you access to Mankar Cammoran's pocket of Oblivion.

Which it did.

In the Knights of the nine DLC his blessing, delivered by a prophet the divines chose, allowed you to kill Umaran permanently.

So in conclusion ignore the antihuman rhetoric of the Thalmor, and accept Talos is a God, even if you don't want him to be one.

[alexander_dougherty]

Opprinnelig skrevet av The Vindicator:

To say that every vampire attack is perpetrated by Lord Harkon is nothing short of generalizing. Might i remind you that The Volkihar Clan, is only ONE clan of vampires. Surely not every single vampire in skyrim hails from a single clan.

Again as i have said before, CHIM seems to be a school of alteration or conjuration, a powerful form of it, yet still magic that can be achieved by those who practice hard enough. Calling it a word of god actually exaggerates it, for if even a mortal like Tiber Septim can achieve it, than anyone has the ability to do so. The whole point of being divine is that you are inherently superior to mortal beings, that which Tiber Septim always was.

Chim is a bit more than that, it is the height of mysticism, and a transcendence of reality. It is impossible to achieve without the blessings of the Aedra, which is why people use the Word of God reference.

And while Tiber Septim was clearly superior it took the heart of lorkhan and the blessings of the other Aedra for him to achieve CHIM. Which puts it beyond the reach of everyone else.

[Will'sWitheredWildebeestWill's]

I genuinely thought i was clued up on Elder Scrolls lore, then i read this...

[fauxpas]

Opprinnelig skrevet av What's the point in names?:

I genuinely thought i was clued up on Elder Scrolls lore, then i read this...

If you REALLY want to jump down the rabbit hole; look up Kirkbride's website ... although fair warning; he thankfully stopped working for Beth before ALL of his ... stranger lore became canon.

[fauxpas]

Opprinnelig skrevet av The Vindicator:

To say that every vampire attack is perpetrated by Lord Harkon is nothing short of generalizing. Might i remind you that The Volkihar Clan, is only ONE clan of vampires. Surely not every single vampire in skyrim hails from a single clan.

Meh; then YOU explain how come they stop when you foil his plot.

And no; before you say it I'm not going to accept "game balance" because there is no "balance" reason for them to cease.

Opprinnelig skrevet av The Vindicator:

Again as i have said before, CHIM seems to be a school of alteration or conjuration, a powerful form of it, yet still magic that can be achieved by those who practice hard enough. Calling it a word of god actually exaggerates it, for if even a mortal like Tiber Septim can achieve it, than anyone has the ability to do so. The whole point of being divine is that you are inherently superior to mortal beings, that which Tiber Septim always was.

First off; reread what CHIM is; its literally a state of being that is beyond even that of the first spirits aka ... the Aedra and the Deadra can ever hope to achieve; presumably (according to Lok anyways) because as immortal beings they are incapable of truly understanding mortality.


Secondly; while you are reading about CHIM again; look up what mantling actually is at its core; you "walk the path" until you meet 'X' only to discover that you were always searching for yourself. ... When Tiber ascended to godhood and became Talos; he did so by aligning his life and very essence until the universe itself couldn't tell the difference between the two; so Tiber WAS always Talos after he accended even if there were two seperate beings before he accended.

[Sly-Scale]

Opprinnelig skrevet av The Vindicator:

As for the Hero of Kvatch, it is ASSUMED he mantled Sheogorath, but it is not confirmed.

Not confirmed? Have you not played the Shivering Isles DLC in TES4:Oblivion?

Do you not remember the in-game title you acquire at the very end of the Shivering Isles DLC? "The Mad God?" When the then-Sheogorath himself pretty much tells you "Yeah you get to take my seat now, congratulations"? When all the Seducers and Golden Saints pay their respects to you like they once paid Sheogorath, even when you're breaking the law? When, if you acquire the title first and then do Sheogorath's shrine quest afterward, Haskill - once his servant - is the one speaking to you instead?

What I will agree upon with you though, is it isn't confirmed whether or not the Hero of Kvatch is still the Mad God by 4E, 201. While Skyrim's Shegorath certainly does reference a handful of events that sound like player-witnessed events in TES4: Oblivion, it's possible that the Hero of Kvatch simply repeated what he experienced - but as Sheogorath - and had some other mortal mantle him... we could be looking at a different former mortal.

But the Hero of Kvatch definitely mantled Sheogorath... even if for a moment before passing it on.

[Star★Dive]

I figured Chim itself doesn't -really- exist, in the way we might think it does.

The simple principal that it allows universe shaping through force of will, or some form of omniscience over the fabric of reality, you'd think would be enough to prevent any sort of major backlash to the person who attains that sort of state of being. Implications of having that sort of power, by its own merit, should be enough to "reshape reality" at any given time in such a way that one's creative freedom should be absolute. Assuming chim exists by comprehending the godhead/divine mind theory, you'd think more people might have attained it, yet supposedly only a small number of individuls ever came close to "some measure" of power akin to scratching the surface of what chim conceivably is capable of (certain daedric lords, and the aedra coalition for nirn?).

Looking at people who have supposedly attained chim, Vivic and Talos/Tiber, they aren't without their problems either. Unless there is some sort of process or "order of events" which has to transpire between chim users to actually be able to bend creation to their will, you'd think Vivic's trials and tribulations would be much easier for him to have overcome in order to attain his desired goals, without getting half of nirn involved. Same thing with Talos, and his hangups with the races of elves and men. If either of them wanted something so badly enough, why not just will it so? From banishing one deity (Azura), to freeing/manteling another (Jyggalag), you'd figure those who have attained something even remotely close, or similar to chim, might have come to the epiphany that, you don't need to shake the planet a couple of times like a piggybank full of coins, to get what you want.

It seems to me, the aedra and daedra have "some measure" of understanding to this, given the aedra cannot physically manifest upon nirn anymore, they are nonetheless protected by it in a sense their spheres and domains are fully functional, housing their spirits and their wills. The daedra on the other hand, each apparently have their own plane of existence which they can call home, shaping and enjoying as they see fit. Like children playing in a sandbox, while the parents look on from the benches, Nirn itself seems to be nothing more than an imaginative experiment in chaos theory (kick over someone's sandcastle, they kick over yours, but sooner or later, some other kid is going to build another sandcastle, because thats what the sandbox is all about. If you don't like it, then go play on the swingset for a while, etc etc).

I'm not going to go too in-depth about chaos though, that just whispers an invitation to kirkbride summoning (the playground bully who is going to force you to see things their way unless you wanna get butthurt). Suffice to say, I think there's a lot of things about chim we can't say for sure we know about with 100% hands down certainty, but it does seem to require some measure of both power and awarness to be able to maintain the state, or status, of chim. That power, and awarness likely has something to do with the people of nirn themselves as independant entities (free-thoughts?) either putting stock into divinity as a cosmological factor at all, or creating some sort of subconcious barrier between nirn and other realms/spheres, by keeping it the core of mundus (the heart of Lorkhan "one created to serve the other", being nothing more than a cosmological distraction, for the daedra to chase after?)

These are just my thoughts though.