Why do people worship Talos/Tiber Septim as a god?

[Arthur]

I mean, I know he was a great emperor who conquered/united all of Tamriel and sh♥t like that, and I personally don't have anything against people worshipping him as a god, but... Why? As far as I'm concerned, there's no real accurate proof that the Eight Divines "blessed" him into becoming a god like them. Also, I don't even know if that would be possible, since the Eight Divines came from the dawn of times, I don't think that a normal human could simply join them that easily (yeah, I know he was a dragonborn, but still).

[No u]

Some people claim that since his shrines work the same way as others, he's still a divine.

[L'mo]

Dude, hes a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ god. Get used to it

[Dutchgamer1982]

it has all to do with the creation story of the world and power.

basicly there were originally two gods.. floating in the nothingness, that that colided and pieces broke away from them, forming lower divines..., those in turn had more pieces breaking away from them, forming the aedra and deadra..
-aedra used their divine power to create the world of Nim (on wich the continent of Tamriel is located)... while originally they were much stronger than deadra.. this weakened them (energy -> matter)
-it IS possible to steal this magical energy, so to become a more powerfull being by absorbing the power of somebody else, or weaken by spending energy.
-deadra are basicly the same as eadra only they choce never to invest their power in creating stuff, as such they remained powerfull.

-the divines are a layer higher in this pecking order than the aedra and deadra, though some of the more powerfull deadra come very close to the power of those divines...

(I admit I know not fully this part of the lore...)

well now there is a state of higher being.. and it IS achievable for man, by tapping magical power away.. mages do it when the manipulate the world or even extend their lifespan...
and some rare humanoids achieved it, the morrowind tribunal obtained this state of power by tapping in the heart of an anchient god.. (aka by tapping in the remnant power of a being more powerfull than the divines when still alive)
where as tiber septim obtained this power by given much of the power of one of the other divines (azuna I believe).. and by being given power by the dragons (that wield much more potent magic than man)

eventually his power became so great he erased all rainforests from tamriel.. by just willing it to be so.. no not only in the now and future.. but in the past as well! such control over Nim on such a scale.. very well gives him a powerlevel equal to the divines...

So it's a bit like sure you have :
2 supreme gods
divines (some evil, some good)
aedra (the ones who were unwilling to lose power are now know as deadra)
dragons & hist
mer, man, beast

in order of hirarchi.. but some obtain power much higher than their rank in this order would qualify and might as such be considered belonging to a higher order.
-do note however that the worship of the tribunal caused the chimer to be cursed! as they were seen as false gods, and the deadra they worshipping was more powerfull than the tribunal who was unable to stop this curse for anybody but themselves.
-however tiber septim seems to be GIVEn power and as such granted this position, and at least for the moment, worship of him has not yet pissed of any being with greater power.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Dutchgamer1982:

it has all to do with the creation story of the world and power.

basicly there were originally two gods.. floating in the nothingness, that that colided and pieces broke away from them, forming lower divines..., those in turn had more pieces breaking away from them, forming the aedra and deadra..
-aedra used their divine power to create the world of Nim (on wich the continent of Tamriel is located)... while originally they were much stronger than deadra.. this weakened them (energy -> matter)
-it IS possible to steal this magical energy, so to become a more powerfull being by absorbing the power of somebody else, or weaken by spending energy.
-deadra are basicly the same as eadra only they choce never to invest their power in creating stuff, as such they remained powerfull.

-the divines are a layer higher in this pecking order than the aedra and deadra, though some of the more powerfull deadra come very close to the power of those divines...

(I admit I know not fully this part of the lore...)

well now there is a state of higher being.. and it IS achievable for man, by tapping magical power away.. mages do it when the manipulate the world or even extend their lifespan...
and some rare humanoids achieved it, the morrowind tribunal obtained this state of power by tapping in the heart of an anchient god.. (aka by tapping in the remnant power of a being more powerfull than the divines when still alive)
where as tiber septim obtained this power by given much of the power of one of the other divines (azuna I believe).. and by being given power by the dragons (that wield much more potent magic than man)

eventually his power became so great he erased all rainforests from tamriel.. by just willing it to be so.. no not only in the now and future.. but in the past as well! such control over Nim on such a scale.. very well gives him a powerlevel equal to the divines...

So it's a bit like sure you have :
2 supreme gods
divines (some evil, some good)
aedra (the ones who were unwilling to lose power are now know as deadra)
dragons & hist
mer, man, beast

in order of hirarchi.. but some obtain power much higher than their rank in this order would qualify and might as such be considered belonging to a higher order.
-do note however that the worship of the tribunal caused the chimer to be cursed! as they were seen as false gods, and the deadra they worshipping was more powerfull than the tribunal who was unable to stop this curse for anybody but themselves.
-however tiber septim seems to be GIVEn power and as such granted this position, and at least for the moment, worship of him has not yet pissed of any being with greater power.

I see, that sort of makes sense. Also, by "the heart of an ancient god", do you mean Lorkhan's Heart? The same that was used by the Dwemer when they tried to create the Brass Tower? (the same that also made them disappear from the world with no explanation when they were being invaded by the Chimer, that eventually became the Dunmer).

Anyways, the two "supreme gods" were some sort of ying and yang from the beginning of times, I don't think they still exist, like, I believe they were completely shattered and their power divided between the Aedra and Daedra.

[Dutchgamer1982]

Originally posted by Vecchio:

Originally posted by Dutchgamer1982:

it has all to do with the creation story of the world and power.

basicly there were originally two gods.. floating in the nothingness, that that colided and pieces broke away from them, forming lower divines..., those in turn had more pieces breaking away from them, forming the aedra and deadra..
-aedra used their divine power to create the world of Nim (on wich the continent of Tamriel is located)... while originally they were much stronger than deadra.. this weakened them (energy -> matter)
-it IS possible to steal this magical energy, so to become a more powerfull being by absorbing the power of somebody else, or weaken by spending energy.
-deadra are basicly the same as eadra only they choce never to invest their power in creating stuff, as such they remained powerfull.

-the divines are a layer higher in this pecking order than the aedra and deadra, though some of the more powerfull deadra come very close to the power of those divines...

(I admit I know not fully this part of the lore...)

well now there is a state of higher being.. and it IS achievable for man, by tapping magical power away.. mages do it when the manipulate the world or even extend their lifespan...
and some rare humanoids achieved it, the morrowind tribunal obtained this state of power by tapping in the heart of an anchient god.. (aka by tapping in the remnant power of a being more powerfull than the divines when still alive)
where as tiber septim obtained this power by given much of the power of one of the other divines (azuna I believe).. and by being given power by the dragons (that wield much more potent magic than man)

eventually his power became so great he erased all rainforests from tamriel.. by just willing it to be so.. no not only in the now and future.. but in the past as well! such control over Nim on such a scale.. very well gives him a powerlevel equal to the divines...

So it's a bit like sure you have :
2 supreme gods
divines (some evil, some good)
aedra (the ones who were unwilling to lose power are now know as deadra)
dragons & hist
mer, man, beast

in order of hirarchi.. but some obtain power much higher than their rank in this order would qualify and might as such be considered belonging to a higher order.
-do note however that the worship of the tribunal caused the chimer to be cursed! as they were seen as false gods, and the deadra they worshipping was more powerfull than the tribunal who was unable to stop this curse for anybody but themselves.
-however tiber septim seems to be GIVEn power and as such granted this position, and at least for the moment, worship of him has not yet pissed of any being with greater power.

I see, that sort of makes sense. Also, by "the heart of an ancient god", do you mean Lorkhan's Heart? The same that was used by the Dwemer when they tried to create the Brass Tower? (the same that also made them disappear from the world with no explanation when they were being invaded by the Chimer, that eventually became the Dunmer).

Anyways, the two "supreme gods" were some sort of ying and yang from the beginning of times, I don't think they still exist, like, I believe they were completely shattered and their power divided between the Aedra and Daedra.

yes that heart. it gave the tribunal great power...
-immortality, ability to hold back the curse (though vivec may have been the weakest of the three, as he only was able to hold back the curse halve..).. though as they used that power.. they became weaker again, and with that heart destroyed they could no longer tab into new power.. it is unclear what happend to vivec since he left morrowind... he might have became a mortal.. or still wandering around somewhere... or secretly supporting the dominion.... I doubt it unlikely that like talos he ascended.. though he was close to the same powerlevel at one time..

[dcain3456]

Begone, Thalmor-loving scum

[Arthur]

Originally posted by dcain3456:

Begone, Thalmor-loving scum

I never said I liked them. In fact, I think that the whole war between the Imperials/Thalmor and Stormcloaks is pointless. Honestly, why the f♥ck would the thalmor be bothered about people worshipping Talos? I know they're scum, but still, what a lack of common sense. If they don't think he should be worshipped, like I do, then they shouldn't worship him! It's very simple.

[Taiwan Number One]

During the main quest in Oblivion, you need to collect several items one of which is the blood of a divine or Aedra. The armor of Tiber Septim, which still had some of his blood on it, did the trick which implies he did ascend to godhood upon his death. This doesn't confirm it obviously, as nothing in TES is ever confirmed, but it does make it a fair assumption.

[alexander_dougherty]

In earlier Elder Scrolls games you could speak with the Divines, including Talos. And in Knights of the Nine DLC for Oblivion you got a power from him (it was an automatic single use power that allowed you to defeat Umarill).

There is plenty of proof that he is a god, just not what the Aldmeri Dominion want.

[gnewna]

In addition to the 'blood of a Divine' being found from Tiber Septim's armour, IIRC the fact that Martin Septim mantles Akatosh is possible due to being a direct descendent of Tiber Septim, which probably counts for something.

Of course, the Altmer have some fairly legit reasons not to be overly chuffed about the man who threatened/attempted genocide by using the Numidium on them and then took over their country being deified, and I believe I've read something about some anti-Elven violence by earlier Talos cultists, but there you go. Not saying it justifies abducting and torturing Talos worshippers in the time when Skyrim takes place, obv, but it's not as simple as "rar we are racists and think Men are worthless so don't like the idea of a Man becoming a God!" - it's not just *a* man, though that would probably be fairly bothersome to them, it's *that specific man* as well.

[gnewna]

There's also the theory which is often viewed as canonical but to the best of my knowledge is based on stuff one of the writers said *after* stopping work on the series, that the Thalmor want to end Talos worship in order to weaken Talos and essentially bring about the unmaking of reality, in order to take their rightful former position as essentially gods/god-like beings - Aedra literally means 'our ancestors', I believe, i.e. the Mer are descended from gods (though I'm currently failing to remember if they're descended from *the* Gods, or from similar beings who became mortal?)

Personally, I don't buy it, not so much because I don't think the Thalmor are sufficiently evil, as because I think by the time of Skyrim they are evil in a far more mundane (even Human) way - they'd much rather retain the pleasures of the flesh and so on, and subjugate the lesser races (i.e. everyone not Altmer and probably quite a lot of Altmer who aren't sufficiently 'pure'/perfect) to their own ends on Nirn. THIS IS JUST HEADCANON, though, based on my own research/forgetful lore nerding/speculation combination.

[Dutchgamer1982]

Originally posted by dcain3456:

Begone, Thalmor-loving scum

I serve the altmer... the talmor allow freaking cats in the alliance, and degenerated bosmer.
so my motives are far more long term than their concepts...
but the total extermination of all races of man on tamriel is a good first step I would say..

back in the days there were 4 great mer civilizations on tamriel...
-the altmer, who were culturally but not geneticly split in chimer (worship of deadra), aylids (control the mainlands) and altmer (maintain racial purity)
-the maomer, who are early outcasts, and hostile to all tamriel races.
-the falmer, who genicly had adapted, but culturally maintained the same purity as the altmer and in some ways improved over them.
-the dwemer who were taller than most other mer races, and had a much greater thirst for power, and were much more mechanical (one can say altmer seek to understand, dwemer seek to control)

and how did those 4 races treat other races in the days before man?
-Goblinkin, (goblins, gremlins, cyclops) an older race kinda like neatherthales to modern man, yes they had certain technology, even city's long before other races, but they lack the mental capability to advance much further, still the mer races utilised them as servants and left them in relative independant rule over their own city, they actually benefitted from this deal
-Dreugh, I fully admit the chimer hunted them for their bodyparts so much their culture crumbled and their race degenerated.
-Sleugh, I fully admit the altmer conquered summerset island from them, but left them alone on their island after that, given that the sleugh are evil and the source of necromancy, and vampirism, and a treat for all races on tamriel, I'd say the altmer are pretty mild to them.
-ape race, driven to extinction by a dreugh induced plague, mer actually fought the dreugh in this and prevented many other races from following the same faith.
-the khaiit, while believed to arrived later, the elf races always left them relatively alone in their home province, the bosmer did battle them over the khaiit cutting their trees, but I consider that a defensive war. in the rest of tamriel khaiit were restricted, and only allowed outside their home province with a permit
-the argonians tried enslaving chimer, until the chimer had enough and turn that tide.. not very friendly but understandable..

So if we look to that record :
-elf races not drive other races to extinction
-elf races are pretty tolerant to other races, alowing them self-governance as long as they not bother them, so not very expantionist
-elf races do not allow rulership to races that are culturally or geneticly inferior, and do battle with other cultures that are equally strong and have oposing vieuws, but overall their tolerance goes pretty far, if lesser races/culture not strife a position of dominance
-elf races for the most part only fight defensive wars.

Man on the other hand :
-when nemes first arrived in skyrim, the falmer were tolerant to them, behaving like native indians to invading europeans... only when the nord took more and more land without regard for the falmer owning that land,. the falmer went to war... the nemes than.. destroyed the falmer for that... (1st race driven to genocide), they destoyed the jungle on tamriel, destroying many of the hist, the most ancient beings on tamriel (2d genocide), they destroyed the aylids (3d genocide), they drove the goblinkin out of their city (3d genocide), conquered the bosmer that only wanted to be free (1st oppression), did the same to the khaiit (2d oppression) and the chimer forcing them to be cursed to dumer (4d genocide, 3d oppression), did the same to the orsimer (5th genocide, 4d oppression).. and even amongst their own kind, the elf-human hybrids (bretons) were conquered (5th oppression) and even the refugees from oversees, the idependant race of man, that became the redguard was conquered (6th oppression)

talos is a war ciminal, man are a plague... a plague that needs to be wiped from tamriel.
We elves have been FAR to tolerant to them.. it's time to rectify that situation.
Man are evil... man must be destroyed... at least man must not be allowed to rule.
yes we elves may be oppressive to lesser spieces and cultures.. but at least those cultures and races SURVIVE under elven rule... some are even lifted to a higher level (goblins would never have learned magic without our tutoring)... man rule just seek to dominate everything and crush everything thats not like it in it;s path...

[JtDarth]

Originally posted by gnewna:

In addition to the 'blood of a Divine' being found from Tiber Septim's armour, IIRC the fact that Martin Septim mantles Akatosh is possible due to being a direct descendent of Tiber Septim, which probably counts for something.

Of course, the Altmer have some fairly legit reasons not to be overly chuffed about the man who threatened/attempted genocide by using the Numidium on them and then took over their country being deified, and I believe I've read something about some anti-Elven violence by earlier Talos cultists, but there you go. Not saying it justifies abducting and torturing Talos worshippers in the time when Skyrim takes place, obv, but it's not as simple as "rar we are racists and think Men are worthless so don't like the idea of a Man becoming a God!" - it's not just *a* man, though that would probably be fairly bothersome to them, it's *that specific man* as well.

To expand on this a little bit:
The lore makes it very clear that all 'dragonborn' contain divine power via Akatosh. Generally speaking, any directly divinely blessed person who does great deeds tends to get elevated into a minor deity/angelic figure/elevated worshipped position, as far as IRL religions go.
Probably the same logic here, where due to Tiber Septim's massive accomplishments, divine power, and the general worship of the people he ruled, he transcended into godhood.
The fact that EVERY game has working Talos shrines and or the ability to converse with Talos directly makes it quite clear he did ascend. The fact that someone of his bloodline who shows no other signs of divine blessing is capable of becoming an avatar of Akatosh, is as you said, quite telling.

As far as why the Thalmor don't like him, they are just salty that a man was capable of ascending to godhood, while they (being high elves), despite being supposedly the closest related to the gods (and 'superior' in general, by their beliefs), are unable. His stomping of their superiority via use of the numidium probably doesn't help.
Note that your average non-thalmor high elf most likely doesn't care enough to actually be bothered by Talos worship.
To make a more real-life comparison, the thalmor are basically the nazi party (not ideologically, but in how they relate to what the average citizen felt and the disconnect between what they want and what the average citizen wants, as well as how they gained power and control the government entirely).
The Thalmor, ultimately, want to unmake the world to become spirits again. They find man as a whole to be an obstacle to this plan, and Talos especially to be an obstacle on this path, due to the link with Akatosh. They ultimately want to get Akatosh to let time fall apart, to destroy reality as it's known and return to the Aether, or at least, that's how I understand the circumstances there.

[jreese46]

Why not?

[Siddha]

Empires often deify great leaders; the Romans did it all the time
How exactly Tiber Septim became Talos is not entirely clear
There were other beings involved too - I cant remember the details just now, but I think he may have been a Shezarrine which is an incarnation of Lorkhan and that Talos is a combination of multiple former human souls