Thought's on Girl's introduction

[Unknown Samurai]

I'm not talking about the kidnapping bit.
I mean in regards to the pronouns and name the group just assigned to her.
I just thought it was pretty interesting. A lot of the... 'controversial' hot takes I hear on TwiX and Blues Clues, are people getting upset when they're either misgendered or someone calls them the wrong pronouns due to appearance/voice. I found it quite intriguing that the group just calls the kid, 'Girl' and uses She/Her pronouns. I honestly thought they'd use gender neutral pronouns, and stick to a universal name, like 'Child', but I guess also calling the kid, 'Kid' would clash with the other narrative.

I also thought this would drag out into a whole thing about using pronouns on someone who can't decide for themselves. But, nope. None of that. Which honestly is kinda nice that Dustborn isn't very 'preachy' in this aspect. I know the dialogue can be cringe at times, but I don't think it's 'woke propaganda' as people claim it to be. Like you know, the many infamous Veilguard clips.

Still though, I would like to hear other opinions on this topic. I'm just curious to know what other people think, both the negatives and the positives. Also, given the whole 'modern audience' thing, I'm surprised there wasn't a Trans character, unless I missed it (CT doesn't count). Noam seems to be the only non-binary character as well.

[Houseman]

They were a lot more cautious around the robot as to what pronouns to use to refer to it, compared to the girl.

But yes, it's refreshing to see them call a girl a girl without having a big fuss about it.

Also on the subject of not being very preachy, it's telling how they treat Pax's baby as a separate, living organism and not just a "clump of cells".

So far, the game:

- Considers the gender binary as the default
- Is pro-life.

---

On the subject of Girl, I found the motivations for getting off the bus and saving her to be a bit forced. When they're in the bus wondering what they should do, Pax, in her narration, says "There's no real choice here, kid. We've saving Animals, that's our mission. We're not leaving them behind, whoever they are"

No, that was never the mission, they had a plan and "saving all the anomals we come across" was never part of it.

[Red Thread Games]

Nice observation!

The writers debated this and actually cut dialogue (written and recorded) where the crew had the same debate about whether or not it was appropriate to label her "Girl". It was cut because it wasn't necessary: we trust players to draw their own conclusions. And you're absolutely right: the game isn't "preachy" about gender identities or pronouns…and was never meant to be. Noam's the only non-binary character; we never made a big deal out of that (aside from Annie getting confused about it). They're just a person using "they/them".

Some people were upset that we included pronouns in the introduction of the crew, but there was no agenda behind it. We just wanted players to know who these people were, and how they wanted to be addressed.

There IS a trans character in the game, however, played by a trans actor! Again, it's not ever remarked upon, but we'd be curious if anyone knows who we're talking about?!

[Red Thread Games]

Originally posted by Houseman:

Also on the subject of not being very preachy, it's telling how they treat Pax's baby as a separate, living organism and not just a "clump of cells".

Well, to Pax her "unborn baby" is more than a "clump of cells". Regardless of how anyone feels about the question of when life begins, we believe it's fair to say that people should be allowed to feel however they want to feel about their OWN pregnancy. Pax grew up Catholic, she's still at least somewhat religious/spiritual, and she wants a child. Whether the conception was accidental or not (we don't say) she's made up her mind about it — even if she hasn't yet figured out her feelings about the baby's father.

This isn't a criticism of yours or anyone else's point of view, by the way! We appreciate your comment, and the questions it poses. We just think it's odd to criticise Pax (as some people have done) for talking to and treating her baby as a person. That's HER choice, based on HER beliefs. Agree or disagree, Pax is her own person. She's not the player (or the developers!), and she has her own value system, wishes, dreams, and beliefs.

[Red Thread Games]

Originally posted by Houseman:

So far, the game:

- Considers the gender binary as the default
- Is pro-life.

This isn't the "game" speaking — or even the developers/writers: it's (some of) the characters in the game. We like to write characters with different points of view, and let players figure out who they relate to the most and agree with.

It's easy to mistake the words spoken and actions committed by fictional characters with the creators, but the two are entirely separate.

[holdingsix]

Originally posted by Red Thread Games:

Nice observation!

The writers debated this and actually cut dialogue (written and recorded) where the crew had the same debate about whether or not it was appropriate to label her "Girl". It was cut because it wasn't necessary: we trust players to draw their own conclusions. And you're absolutely right: the game isn't "preachy" about gender identities or pronouns…and was never meant to be. Noam's the only non-binary character; we never made a big deal out of that (aside from Annie getting confused about it). They're just a person using "they/them".

Some people were upset that we included pronouns in the introduction of the crew, but there was no agenda behind it. We just wanted players to know who these people were, and how they wanted to be addressed.

There IS a trans character in the game, however, played by a trans actor! Again, it's not ever remarked upon, but we'd be curious if anyone knows who we're talking about?!

Ruth?

It's also fun to try and guess who would have been the characters that either would have defended or been hesitant about calling her "Girl" in the deleted dialog.

[Red Thread Games]

Originally posted by Houseman:

No, that was never the mission, they had a plan and "saving all the anomals we come across" was never part of it.

It's definitely part of the mission Theo sold to the crew: transporting the "cargo" to Nova Scotia will benefit the organisation working to help Anomals.

But we agree that this may not be clear to players at this point in the story, and we can probably do a better job communicating it!

[Red Thread Games]

Originally posted by holdingsix:

It's also fun to try and guess who would have been the characters that either would have defended or been hesitant about calling her "Girl" in the deleted dialog.

We'll look into the possibility of posting a video (or script) of this dialogue at some point…if it still exists somewhere!

[Red Thread Games]

Originally posted by holdingsix:

Originally posted by Red Thread Games:

There IS a trans character in the game, however, played by a trans actor! Again, it's not ever remarked upon, but we'd be curious if anyone knows who we're talking about?!

Ruth?

Yep.

[Houseman]

Originally posted by Red Thread Games:

Originally posted by holdingsix:

Ruth?

Yep.

Dang, clocked on the first guess.

I guess even in a fictional world with technology beyond ours, trans women still might not pass.

Originally posted by Red Thread Games:

It's easy to mistake the words spoken and actions committed by fictional characters with the creators, but the two are entirely separate.

Are they entirely separate? Because I would have to imagine that some of the thoughts, feelings, morals, and desires from the writers get into the script in some way.

Say that a studio makes a game about Nazis and then say "Oh, their views don't represent our views, it's entirely separate!" Do you really think that would fly? No, I don't think that would.

[andrew.blackledge]

I would have called her the girl rather than just girl.

There is actually a line in the campfire scene at the end of Issue 5 where Noam says calling her Girl is a bit presumptuous.

[bugfragged]

Girl used the infinite retry cheat during the hide-and-seek segment, which means the writers ENDORSE cheating at hide-and-seek.

One point of disagreement among the crew I find interesting is that Sai is the only one who considers using the political process to curb Justice's power while Pax, Ziggy, and Sol think it's a lost cause. The story does seem to be weighted against Sai due to the implication that Justice is turning Medina-Castillo into controlled opposition, but her Way of the Heart ending tries to be hopeful about her plan to convince Medina-Castillo to reject Justice. The endings make it ambiguous how effective any of the characters' Coda paths will be, though it does seem somewhat weighted towards the Weave. I count 3 armed resistance endings, 4.5 Weave endings (Noam follows Pax in Maybe Someday), 1.5 political process endings (Eli contacts the media in Realist).

[holdingsix]

Originally posted by Houseman:

On the subject of Girl, I found the motivations for getting off the bus and saving her to be a bit forced. When they're in the bus wondering what they should do, Pax, in her narration, says "There's no real choice here, kid. We've saving Animals, that's our mission. We're not leaving them behind, whoever they are"

No, that was never the mission, they had a plan and "saving all the anomals we come across" was never part of it.

I interpreted this as a made-up excuse she tells to herself, in lack of a way to verbalize that she's following some intuition, perhaps a subconscious one. Something is giving her a strong conviction that stopping and looking for the stray anomal is the right thing to do. In the end, this intuition proved right in several ways.

Originally posted by Houseman:

I guess even in a fictional world with technology beyond ours, trans women still might not pass.

Maybe not the smartest comment, given that trans women may generally not be fully transitioned.

[Houseman]

Originally posted by holdingsix:

I interpreted this as a made-up excuse she tells to herself, in lack of a way to verbalize that she's following some intuition, perhaps a subconscious one. Something is giving her a strong conviction that stopping and looking for the stray anomal is the right thing to do. In the end, this intuition proved right in several ways.

That's jumping through a lot of unnecessary mental hoops to cover for the writers' flimsy justification, but okay.

[bugfragged]

Saving other Anomals is consistent with the Weave's overall principles, but at the same time, saving individuals can be detrimental to the datakey mission and to the crew's survival. Pax mentions "mission" in her thoughts, but does that refer specifically to the datakey mission or her own personal desires? IMO, Pax's reasoning in that scene makes it feel like Librarian was the preferred Coda of the writers, since that one has Pax embrace the Weave's ideals.

I watched a bit of someone's Expat run and in the Issue 10 scene at the diner parking lot, Pax loses hope in doing good with her Vox, which contradicts the later scene where she faces off with the Overseer. Again, it makes me think the writing favors Librarian.

[Houseman]

Originally posted by bugfragged:

Saving other Anomals is consistent with the Weave's overall principles, but at the same time, saving individuals can be detrimental to the datakey mission and to the crew's survival. Pax mentions "mission" in her thoughts, but does that refer specifically to the datakey mission or her own personal desires? IMO, Pax's reasoning in that scene makes it feel like Librarian was the preferred Coda of the writers, since that one has Pax embrace the Weave's ideals.

I watched a bit of someone's Expat run and in the Issue 10 scene at the diner parking lot, Pax loses hope in doing good with her Vox, which contradicts the later scene where she faces off with the Overseer. Again, it makes me think the writing favors Librarian.

I wonder, does Pax's coda influence the things she says, like it does with the other characters? Or does she always say the same stuff, and the only change is the dialog at the very end?