Is lantern apostle the worst?

[Effluvial Kraken]

So right now I need to get a Splendor. Except the only way you can get one is by going through the Peacock Door. The only way you can do that is with mirrors or an item you can only find in one of the highest level vaults. You can only really get to the highest level vaults by finding a Secret History in the... Peacock Door. That's a 1/5 chance at the Red Church, and a 1/3 chance at the Worm Museum. So if I don't want to have to get bronze every time I roll the 1/3 chance for a Splendor, I'll need to get bronze and then roll for a 1/3 chance for a Secret History. Then if I land that 1/3 chance I'll have a 1/5 chance for it to be the right location.

BUT WAIT! Getting a Splendor isn't good enough. You have to get a Splendor and then use it before it decays with a Dream of a Key. Except the Dream of a Key also decays. So if you don't get the Splendor within a few minutes of getting the key, it will all have been wasted. You can only get a Dream of a Key with the cravings event. The game pops that up maybe every 5 minutes. So, assuming that I have all of the requisite materials, I can try for a 1/3 chance to progress every 5 minutes.

If all of this goes swimmingly, I can advance to the next part of the quest and hope there's less RNG involved. To make matters worse, I accidentally gave my mirror away to one of my followers because I thought that it was broken when it wasn't. So now I only have the higher-level mirror that can be repaired with silver. So now I need silver every time I go through the Peacock Door, which means that I also have to hope that the patrons offer me silver-level commissions. So that's another 1/3 chance tacked on to things. If I want to undo this mistake then all I have to do is restart the entire game.

So in order to progress as a lantern apostle right now I need to succeed at the following: 4 attempts through the 4 patrons at a 1/3 chance, then a 1/3 chance, OR the same thing except with an extra 1/5 chance and expedition. Getting commissions takes 10 seconds. Assuming I have to ask 3 of the patrons to get a silver-level commission, that's 30 seconds. Completing a commission takes (I think) 60 seconds. So if I get normal RNG, and I resolve all the other commissions after the silver-level one, I can get a silver every 90 seconds. Then I have to repair the mirror which (I think) takes 90 seconds. So if I don't land my first attempt at the 1/3 chance for a Splendor, I can wait for 3 minutes to be able to wait for 5 minutes to try again. It takes like 60 seconds for the dream to process, so that's another minute tacked on.

So, being generous here, the only way for me to progress is to roll for a 1/3 chance every 9 minutes. That's assuming that I do all of the tasks, including any additional tasks that might pop up, within those 9 minutes. So I can't just go watch a YouTube video or something. If I have the speed on fast forward then it'd probably take 4.5 minutes. So this part of the quest line consists of doing repetitive busy work in order to get a chance at progression every 5 minutes. This is rivaling mobile game design in terms of time wasting.

I get that this is meant to be hard, but RNG and difficulty should not be synonymous. I really like being able to play again as my previous character's apostle, and the lore in general, but the "difficulty" here has eliminated the fun factor. Seems like I have to cheat. Vent over.

[Maina]

You seem to be lacking an awareness of some fundamental techniques that you should have learned during the minor victory. This lack of knowledge is fairly pervasive, so my overwhelming advice is going to be "experiment and try new things" because there are easier ways to do just about everything you're talking about.

I will give you two specific examples:

1. You can use any Spintra to repair a mirror. Bronze is just the minimum. This is one of many reasons I advise Commissions as one's primary income pretty much as soon as you can pull it off. Painting as a primary funding source is overrated and actively harms you in cases like these.

2. You can keep Influence going forever, so you don't have to worry about it running out before you get the Key. The most effective way of doing this is talking to Sulochana or a Summon about it. You can also paint with it, but that interferes with your Spintra production a lot more. Still, you can paint with it while you're turning in Commissions.

[LupisLight]

Building on Maina's comments about keeping influence going, I want to point out that as long as a card is in a Verb's slot, it's decay timer is frozen, regardless if that process is started, or even if it possible to run the verb with that ingredient. Obviously if the verb isn't running, you have to keep it open or the card will return to where it was and resume decaying as soon as you close the verb. Still, if you have to do something else in the meantime, you can pause, do what you need, then put the card you are preserving back in the slot before un-pausing.

It is possible to combine two identical influences into a more powerful influence of that aspect by studying the two aspects together with a high-enough level of lore of the corresponding aspect.

For example, two level 2 Lantern influences, studied with a piece of Lantern lore, becomes the level 6 Lantern influence. You can also subvert Influences just like lore, again just study them together with a lore of the aspect you are converting into. Note also that this does NOT consume the lore, so feel free to repeat this as often as you want. Takes only 10 seconds to do, too!

I tested this just for fun today by taking a constant stream of Forge 2 Influences from my headquarters at the Abandoned Warehouse, and was able to preserve and combine them until I had a Forge 15 Influence (An Incandescence). For reference that is seven combination steps, as Influences come in Level 2,6,10,and 15 variations for each aspect.

I needed at most to preserve 3 different Influences at a time during this process, and the places I stored them were Talking to Mme. Sulochana about the Influence, Painting using the imagination skill (NOT just working with a passion, but the actual painting skill), and using the influence as an inspiration, and finally storing a remaining influence in the study verb if neccesary as I mentioned above. Finally, I believe I was able to use a Forge 8 Lore for all of the combinations.

A pity I didn't actually need 'An Incandescence' for anything at that moment, but it made for some nice paintings, at least. I'm just saying that it IS doable if you are patient and plan things out. In the future I will probably start with Forge 10 or 6 Influences instead of building up from Forge 2, just because that was still a tad tedious.

Good luck with your apostle run!

[JungleJollies[]]

Interacting with the peacock door, before you have the Frangiclave, is always a chore.

I don't know if the Evening Isle deck is random, or if it appears in a set order. Either way, your focus should be on finding Fort Geryk, and if there's any shortcut to doing that, I would love to know.

So think about it this way: a splendor is something you will randomly encounter along your mansus journey to find vagabond's maps. You're real goal is the Frangiclave, because you're going to need a few items from the Evening isles.

When you stumble upon a splendor; if you're ready to get your witnesses lined up, then you can start using it then and there. If you need to tie it up for a while, talk to someone about it. Gathering the witnesses is hard, until you figure out how to do it. My first effort to gather the witnesses ended catastrophically, but it forced me to reconsider the most reliable way to generate them. And FYI -- they'll stabilize once you've got them all assembled.

All things considered, I think the apostle lantern is the hardest of the three.

[JungleJollies[]]

Originally posted by LupisLight:

I tested this just for fun today by taking a constant stream of Forge 2 Influences from my headquarters at the Abandoned Warehouse, and was able to preserve and combine them until I had a Forge 15 Influence (An Incandescence). For reference that is seven combination steps, as Influences come in Level 2,6,10,and 15 variations for each aspect.

I suppose that's viable now. Thanks for testing it.
That said, the current set up makes me lament; I would much rather have the notoriety follow me, but allow me to change my headquarters back and forth depending on the type of influence I need to harvest.

[K E N N I]

If you gave away your Watchman's glass due to a misclick or not reading, what do you expect? If you did it with Carcass Spark or Chalice Murmurous in the other apostle legacies, it's pretty much game over.

[Alpha Antagonist]

First, you'll need Frangiclave. Try to dream Way: Peacock's Door with a mirror and choose The Worm Museum, you will have 1/3 chance of getting Vagabond's Map, repair the mirror and repeat till you gain 2 Vagabond's Maps. Study 2 Vagabond's Maps to gain Port Noon Anecdote.
All you need now is little of luck, explore Port Noon Anecdote and you'll have 1/4 chance to gain The Wreck of the Christabel. After completely explored it, you will have Frangiclave as reward, which means you don't have to repair the mirror anymore.
Then, summon Maid-in-the-Mirror and trap her by dragging into Talk, you'll need her to get the final allure (I assume you've already collected 7 allures and done a little chitchat with Teresa by now)
After that, try to get A Splendour by dreaming Way: Peacock's Door with Frangiclave and trap it with Painting.

[Tylana]

Short answer : No Lantern is about as bad as any of the others. They all require multiple things from Port Noon (Rite Incarnadine for a start)

If you have edge or grail cultists, consider using the spider door if you don't have mirrors or spintra are limited. After a point, more notoriety is not more dangerous if you just accept you will be destroying evidence instead.

[Effluvial Kraken]

Originally posted by Maina:

You seem to be lacking an awareness of some fundamental techniques that you should have learned during the minor victory. This lack of knowledge is fairly pervasive, so my overwhelming advice is going to be "experiment and try new things" because there are easier ways to do just about everything you're talking about.

I will give you two specific examples:

1. You can use any Spintra to repair a mirror. Bronze is just the minimum. This is one of many reasons I advise Commissions as one's primary income pretty much as soon as you can pull it off. Painting as a primary funding source is overrated and actively harms you in cases like these.

2. You can keep Influence going forever, so you don't have to worry about it running out before you get the Key. The most effective way of doing this is talking to Sulochana or a Summon about it. You can also paint with it, but that interferes with your Spintra production a lot more. Still, you can paint with it while you're turning in Commissions.

Yeah, you can use any Spintra to repair a mirror but you do have minimums, as you said. So the MINIMUM for my high-level mirror is Silver. This isn't a case of me not understanding the mechanics. This is you not reading what I wrote carefully.

Your second point would be useful were it not for the fact that I can't get the Splendor to begin with. I'm well aware of the ability to delay decay, but it doesn't do me any good unless I actually get the influence.

As for what LupisLight said: Doing that requires a lot of time, maybe as much time as it would take to get a Splendor from the Peacock Door, and also a detailed understanding of where to farm low-level lantern influences. The whole thing seems really gamey to me, like cheating. I feel bad enough keeping my Maid-in-the-Mirrors around forever.

It seems like you guys are just assuming from the beginning that I don't know how to play the game. Some of you are even repeating stuff that I typed in my original post as though it's advice. I'm not saying that I don't know how to do it, guys. I'm saying that it just sucks.

[Effluvial Kraken]

Originally posted by tylana:

Short answer : No Lantern is about as bad as any of the others. They all require multiple things from Port Noon (Rite Incarnadine for a start)

If you have edge or grail cultists, consider using the spider door if you don't have mirrors or spintra are limited. After a point, more notoriety is not more dangerous if you just accept you will be destroying evidence instead.

I think destroying evidence isn't the way to do things. Even with Disciples, it gets them wounded too much. The actual success rate is something like 70%. It's way better to just summon a minion and have it murder any adversary that shows up. Even with Mystic or Tenacious adversaries, you can just keep trying it over and over again until it works. Even if you don't have any magic minions, you can just launch Frost attacks over and over again until it works.

[Effluvial Kraken]

Originally posted by patryk.drobinski:

If you gave away your Watchman's glass due to a misclick or not reading, what do you expect? If you did it with Carcass Spark or Chalice Murmurous in the other apostle legacies, it's pretty much game over.

I'm not complaining that I accidentally gave it away. All that really did was make it slightly harder to repair my mirror. What I am saying is that it's made a miserable experience even worse.

[Maina]

Originally posted by Effluvial Kraken:

BUT WAIT! Getting a Splendor isn't good enough. You have to get a Splendor and then use it before it decays with a Dream of a Key. Except the Dream of a Key also decays. So if you don't get the Splendor within a few minutes of getting the key, it will all have been wasted.

Originally posted by Effluvial Kraken:

Your second point would be useful were it not for the fact that I can't get the Splendor to begin with. I'm well aware of the ability to delay decay, but it doesn't do me any good unless I actually get the influence.

You're being deliberately misleading in one of these two posts. Either you know you can keep it from being wasted, or you don't. If you do, you're deliberately misrepresenting the facts in the first post.

While the Lantern Long is, I find, very difficult compared to the others, the main objective is actually far easier. Both the mistakes you made that crippled you and the lack of knowledge on how to fix it is a you problem. You can get a second Wildering Mirror, for example. That's on you.

Don't get mad when people try to help you after you show your ignorance and ask for feedback. It's very rude.

[JungleJollies[]]

Hey...

This interaction is turning a little sour, and it really doesn't need to. I think it's fair for a person to say "I don't like being talked down to" at the same time I recognize that it's not always clear what mechanics/strategies are known/unknown, and efforts to explain can be misconstrued as something else. Lord knows I pontificate, so I won't be casting any stones.

I just think this is becoming personal and this probably isn't the best place for that.

[Effluvial Kraken]

Originally posted by Maina:

Originally posted by Effluvial Kraken:

BUT WAIT! Getting a Splendor isn't good enough. You have to get a Splendor and then use it before it decays with a Dream of a Key. Except the Dream of a Key also decays. So if you don't get the Splendor within a few minutes of getting the key, it will all have been wasted.

Originally posted by Effluvial Kraken:

Your second point would be useful were it not for the fact that I can't get the Splendor to begin with. I'm well aware of the ability to delay decay, but it doesn't do me any good unless I actually get the influence.

You're being deliberately misleading in one of these two posts. Either you know you can keep it from being wasted, or you don't. If you do, you're deliberately misrepresenting the facts in the first post.

While the Lantern Long is, I find, very difficult compared to the others, the main objective is actually far easier. Both the mistakes you made that crippled you and the lack of knowledge on how to fix it is a you problem. You can get a second Wildering Mirror, for example. That's on you.

Don't get mad when people try to help you after you show your ignorance and ask for feedback. It's very rude.

What you're missing here is that the game gives you a Dream of a Key constantly, eliminating the need to store one. Storing one would take more effort than waiting for one. Storing items like that seems more like an exploit anyway. Hence that I'm not being misleading. I'm only describing what you have to do and what the intended solution is. The main point of the original post was to highlight the flaws in this quest's design. Even with these exploits, it's still an unpleasant task that mainly comes down to RNG and time consumption.

Getting a second Wildering Mirror would also take about as much effort as getting a Splendor or a Frangiclave since it's only a predetermined drop in one location. Even with a Wildering Mirror, that would just change the 1/3 chance of getting the right Spintria down to a 2/3 chance. Not a big time save at all, considering that getting commissions is the fastest part. The time lost from getting a second Wildering Mirror would probably outweigh the time gained.

Now what's "very rude" here is you trying to dismiss my criticisms by talking down to me.

[Bill]

I've freshly lost in a Lantern Apostle legacy and I can say that it is extremely difficult and also annoying.
Features include:
- The Long permanently corrupting certain cards and followers with no way to undo any of it
This is particularly jarring because the game often offers you superficial capabilities like "transform your health into a temporary ward against sickness" (which essentially makes it an even worse form of health and a terrible way to get Lore), "convert your unconvertable passion/reason into decrepitude which can be converted to health" (which would probably be good in an emergency if you somehow outright lost the Health instead of it turning into Decrepitude), but it can't offer a way to make Reason not make you mad.
- Having no way to fight back against the Long until you weather out dozens of attacks as they slowly build up their power, so you're either speedrunning it or going for the long haul, probably even deliberately putting yourself in a situation where the Long gets lessons faster so you can wrap this up sooner
- Vague instructions on how to proceed with the quest, which is exacerbated by the aforementioned Long attacks putting pressure on it
- RNG-centric gameplay, such as the Dream Of A Key + A Splendor requirements already mentioned in the thread or rolling the Mansus gacha for Secret Histories as you still have to weather the Long's attacks
- Insane objectives like summoning 7 Maids-In-The-Mirror in a short period of time to improve the Witness card and creating Notoriety 7 times in the process
- The capability to lock yourself out of performing the quest (like the Mrs E. card expiring in the Forge Apostle legacy)
- If you lose the Legacy you have to start over from a regular game before you can access the Apostle Legacy again
- The Followers you sent after the Long randomly returning with no control over who returns, which essentially means your Lantern/Knock Follower returning while the ineffective Moth/Winter can't do anything about the upcoming Intrigue attack (that you don't know of), which means you send 3 cultists and suddenly they're all sent back to the board
The Apostle Legacies are where the game's worst gameplay aspects are predominant, you don't have any real freedom in dealing with things yourself, you essentially need a guide at hand and some serious mastery (or wiki-delving for literally everything, but wiki-delving ruins the main appeal) of the game to even attempt. I know that it is meant to be challenging but it is completely lacking in features that would make it fun. You can't mount attacks against the Long or sabotage their operations ahead of time (I do not consider the delaying actions to be enough), you don't have to deal with a rival Cult that tries to get their Long to be a Name before yours, you can't actually bring along your own Long to help with things (which is especially silly because there IS a Long that constantly tries to sabotage your efforts, Longs can be encountered in a vault or two and can only be distracted, but somehow your Long can't actually do anything and their entire cult somehow vanished with only one Lore and Follower remaining, leaving you to pick up the pieces and re-research every book and re-raid every vault).
Overall it's half-baked. The writing is good but the gameplay leaves too much to be desired.