Curses and stats

[Devin]

So with the new way that stats work and are upgraded, it seems we have a hard cap and can no longer farm reason and passion forever.

That would be fine, except that curses can still remove stats, meaning that now we're in a constant race to see if we can finish the game before curses eat our unrecoverable stats.

I honestly really hate this.

[Jase]

Then don't allow the curses to take effect? I have won 2 ascensions and never suffered a curse

[Nakos]

Originally posted by Jase:

Then don't allow the curses to take effect? I have won 2 ascensions and never suffered a curse

The current game mechanics mean that sometimes, even with a "perfect" counter, you will still fail to defeat an obstacle. So... even with 10 Heart (or Winter, or whichever a given curse calls for) the Curse WILL still take effect occasionally.

[King Banhammer]

Originally posted by Jase:

Then don't allow the curses to take effect? I have won 2 ascensions and never suffered a curse

Basically the only way to actually guarantee this right now is "never encounter a curse".

[Perpetual]

How many curse challenges that remove stats are you even running into over the course of the game? I can't fathom encountering enough curses to make this a real danger unless you're like constantly spamming a repeatable area with a curse.

[Devin]

Originally posted by Perpetual:

How many curse challenges that remove stats are you even running into over the course of the game? I can't fathom encountering enough curses to make this a real danger unless you're like constantly spamming a repeatable area with a curse.

I went to 2 areas on my current run, both lowest tier.

Second one had a curse, already lost one passion of the 3 that I had.

[Kbro]

Still, as feedback, it would be nice to have some ill conditions recoverable via rites, like decrepitude currently is for health. It would be funny to have "ennui" and "idiocy" (or feeble mind) as contrast to passion and reason.

The way moth path is designed, having 2 less passion can be crippling in the game

[AK]

This came up in the Discord too. My response...

"(iv) I see there's been some robust debate about whether the game is too hard [with curses]. three sub-points on that sub-point

(a) I like making games that are a bit mean. A game that very occasionally murders a treasured NPC - but doesn't very occasionally end the game without warning - is my jam. So I'm afraid this is Operating As Intended.

(b) that said, there is always nuance, and there are various mitigations I'm considering. Please keep the qualitative feedback coming: I watch, weigh, consider.

(c) If anyone really can't stand the 10% chance of triggering the Worms curse, then edit this file:

\cultistsimulator_Data\StreamingAssets\content\core\recipes\explore_obstacles_curses.json

(slightly different on Mac and Linux, same file tho)

and replace all instances of 90% with 100%. You'll need to do this again whenever the game updates."

[Devin]

Originally posted by Kbro:

Still, as feedback, it would be nice to have some ill conditions recoverable via rites, like decrepitude currently is for health. It would be funny to have "ennui" and "idiocy" (or feeble mind) as contrast to passion and reason

Now there's an idea I can get behind.

[AK]

If you're struggling with the Moth path because of lack of Passion, you can always switch to Heart dances to finish the Ascension. There is also a way to turn Reason permanently into Passion, or vice versa, with Rites. And the chances of six Curses in a row triggering are literally one in a million.

BUT I am hearing lots of feedback that it feels cruel, and this is obviously a qualitative thing. So nothing is off the table; I'll keep considering, and thanks for the feedback!

[Devin]

Originally posted by Alexis Kennedy:

I like making games that are a bit mean. A game that very occasionally murders a treasured NPC - but doesn't very occasionally end the game without warning - is my jam. So I'm afraid this is Operating As Intended.

Yeah I'm sure that's fun to make.

A bit less fun to play.

I understand not always seeing things from the other side though.

[AK]

I'm a smol indie dev making deliberately unusual experimental games, and 'Alexis Kennedy games' have a particular kimd of reputation to uphold. And I am getting other feedback that people like the challenge.

But I don't, contrary to rumour, hate fun, and I do get the sense that the concern expressed is not so much about what is actually likely to happen as it is about worry souring the experience, which is a legit concern. So I *am* looking at mitigation! I just don't want to promise anything rn.

In the meantime, there is the tweak above!

[Quizer]

Originally posted by Devin:

Originally posted by Kbro:

Still, as feedback, it would be nice to have some ill conditions recoverable via rites, like decrepitude currently is for health. It would be funny to have "ennui" and "idiocy" (or feeble mind) as contrast to passion and reason

Now there's an idea I can get behind.

While we're at it, can those rites also restore the scars you get from dancing with health or passion at the Ecdysis club? Just let Forge's Redemption also accept the health scars and the new recover passion rite the passion scars.

On the whole, I'm not a huge fan to the changes to stats and how strictly limited they are now. I felt that even though more stat cards could be generated indefinitely, it was annoying and difficult enough to discourage doing that more than necessary. I liked to stop at 8 reason / passion, and for health you need even less than that.

The main thing I think about the new stat upgrade process with the Lessons Learnt cards is that it's even slower. It's marginally easier, but mainly it slows the process of acquiring stats even more and puts more time demand on that research verb that is already overburdened to hell and back, especially at the start of the game when you need to work your way through Morland's and the auction house. I often felt that I'd like to have two or three study verbs sometimes before the update, and this just makes things worse.

The new way reason / passion books work makes them useless, and I hate them. Yeah, it makes it easier / trivial to get the 4th stat upgrade if you stockpile the books, but I'm fully capable of getting those on my own, and I actually enjoy the challenge of getting the stars to align for that one. Also, I agree the number of total passion / reason you could get was kind of ridiculous, but I enjoyed being able to keep the books around as insurance in case one of my reason or passion got eaten. I think I'd prefer to see less of those books spawn in a game but still have them generate actual additional stat cards like they used to.

[Quizer]

Btw, when I was upgrading to the 4th stat level in one of the stats, I ended up getting flavor text / previews of upgrading / subverting lore, depending on what I put in the slots. I did not try to experiment with this, for fear that it might eat my skill card or my stats, but you might want to investigate that.

[Nakos]

Originally posted by Devin:

Originally posted by Alexis Kennedy:

I like making games that are a bit mean. A game that very occasionally murders a treasured NPC - but doesn't very occasionally end the game without warning - is my jam. So I'm afraid this is Operating As Intended.

Yeah I'm sure that's fun to make.

A bit less fun to play.

I understand not always seeing things from the other side though.

Yeah, but that's not really the point.

Games are a kind of art, the point of art and/or stories is to inspire certain reactions from those who partake of it. This is a game of Lovecraftian Horror. It really is the goal of the game to inspire tension, fear, dismay in the player.

If the loss is not tangible, then the victory becomes hollow.

Without (simulating (the stimulation of)) fear, pain, loss, sorrow during the process of playing the game, then it becomes much more difficult to provide the player with the feeling of victory at the end.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining that well enough for it to makes sense to you, but it is actually a fundamental game design principle. It's sort of the opposite of the phrase "Easy come, easy go".

Now.. that having been said, there IS a difference between a game challenge that can be overcome by perserverence on the part of the player, and simply having the RNG dump on you with no possible recourse.

But Alexis Kennedy has been kind enough to explain how to alter the RNG if it really bothers anyone, so ... there are options.

[Devin]

Originally posted by Nakos:

Games are a kind of art, the point of art and/or stories is to inspire certain reactions from those who partake of it. This is a game of Lovecraftian Horror. It really is the goal of the game to inspire tension, fear, dismay in the player.

If the loss is not tangible, then the victory becomes hollow.

Without (simulating (the stimulation of)) fear, pain, loss, sorrow during the process of playing the game, then it becomes much more difficult to provide the player with the feeling of victory at the end.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining that well enough for it to makes sense to you, but it is actually a fundamental game design principle. It's sort of the opposite of the phrase "Easy come, easy go".

Now.. that having been said, there IS a difference between a game challenge that can be overcome by perserverence on the part of the player, and simply having the RNG dump on you with no possible recourse.

But Alexis Kennedy has been kind enough to explain how to alter the RNG if it really bothers anyone, so ... there are options.

It's interesting that you should bring that up.

I've never really been into the whole "games as art" thing.

I play games to have fun, first and foremost. I don't really want to pay money to experience dismay or frustration.

Yes I understand the whole sense of victory born from struggle. I've played several roguelikes, as well as other "challenging" games like Dark Souls and Darkest Dungeon. And I've enjoyed them.

The idea is to make it just punishing enough, I guess, and make the player feel like they have choices, or something they could have done differently. A loss should be a learning experience, I think.

If you have played the Darkest Dungeon, let me give you a comparison.
I liked the vanilla game, but Crimson Court definitely crossed the line of how much BS I want to tolerate.

Anyway, this is actually becoming a fun discussion! I'm glad I brought this up.