Stag door is against you

[Barsik_The_CaT]

So, I've been trying to progress in the game recently, mostly to get a 12 Lantern reagent/instrument so I can finally learn ♥♥♥♥ing Phrygian and Deep Mandaic.
For that I have been farming Stag's Door and here's what's interesting:
The uncovered card is either a 6th order Secret Histories or some influence.
The card on the top is 10th order Winter/Edge or 6th order Grail/Forge/
Now, here's the interesting part:
The bottom card is either an Erudition, 8th order Secret Histories or Fascination.
Now, ideally, if we want to uncover new expeditions in reasonable amount of time, we could just pick the bottom card and hope for the best, HOWEVER, there is no reliable way to get Dread and it may cost you a run.
Just what the ♥♥♥♥ should I do?

[StratAll]

There are ways to get dread :

Talk to a hunter with winter lore
Work decrepitude (which you get from letting an affliction time out
Don't upgrade your desire beyond the third mark
Read certain books
Let certain influences decay

If you start focusing on those at the first fascination count, you won't get into trouble.

[Barsik_The_CaT]

Originally posted by StratAll:

There are ways to get dread :

Talk to a hunter with winter lore
Work decrepitude (which you get from letting an affliction time out
Don't upgrade your desire beyond the third mark
Read certain books
Let certain influences decay

If you start focusing on those at the first fascination count, you won't get into trouble.

1. Pure RNG. I am not spending next hour or two trying to get hunter's attention.
2. Pure RNG + resources spent on recovery (and getting them might also generate more fascination).
3. Never had my desire past trird mark.
4. Pure RNG.
5. Pure RNG + might generate more fasination.

I guess I'll just stop playing until a proper way of dealing with fascination is introduced, because right now it's pure ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

[Ryan Dorkoski]

2) and 5) are not RNG. It's guaranteed. Sounds like you do not quite understand the 5) hint because of your Fascination note.

1) is not 'pure RNG' either. You can load your chances with that one easily.

Just keep learning the mechanics and you will have no issue. We can certainly help you. I assure you that Dread/Fascination cycle is no issue for the prepared.

[Barsik_The_CaT]

Originally posted by Ryan Dorkoski:

2) and 5) are not RNG. It's guaranteed. Sounds like you do not quite understand the 5) hint.

1) is not 'pure RNG' either. You can load your chances with that one easily.

Just keep learning the mechanics and you will have no issue. We can certainly help you.

How on the earth getting decrepitude is NOT RNG? Sickness literally comes out as a random event, not to mention that dedicating a whole point of Health to it sounds like a terrible idea.
And how are influences NOT RNG when you get them from going through doors, but doors can screw you over by giving more fascination?
Getting a hunter on your tail is RNG too, as 'Wrong kind of attention' comes up randomly and requires you to have proper cards to give you a hunter. At the same time keeping a hunter on your ass at all times is a terrible idea - last thing you need is your followers being jailed.

[Ryan Dorkoski]

Originally posted by Barsik_The_CaT:

Originally posted by Ryan Dorkoski:

2) and 5) are not RNG. It's guaranteed. Sounds like you do not quite understand the 5) hint.

1) is not 'pure RNG' either. You can load your chances with that one easily.

Just keep learning the mechanics and you will have no issue. We can certainly help you.

How on the earth getting decrepitude is NOT RNG? Sickness literally comes out as a random event, not to mention that dedicating a whole point of Health to it sounds like a terrible idea.
And how are influences NOT RNG when you get them from going through doors, but doors can screw you over by giving more fascination?
Getting a hunter on your tail is RNG too, as 'Wrong kind of attention' comes up randomly and requires you to have proper cards to give you a hunter. At the same time keeping a hunter on your ass at all times is a terrible idea - last thing you need is your followers being jailed.

The piece of information you are missing is Seasons.

So, you have to understand there are Seasons. Getting the Ailment is a Season and is a guarantee. In fact, it happens very quickly, and regularly. What you also need to know is that once you sacrifice a Heart for Decreptitude, it's easy to just redo the step to get that Health back. So in the big picture you don't lose Health - but only gain Decreptitude.

Make sure you are always looking at what Season is coming up. That's a huge help.

You don't just get influences from going through doors.

Getting a Hunter is also related to the Seasons. Rethink things. Watch what Seasons is coming next and prepare accordingly (ie. if Fascination Verb is coming up - and if you have a Fascination on the table - get a Dread cooking), and you should do much better. In fact you should quickly have an un-losable situation going, as long as you don't get sloppy or play super fast.

If you want me to walk you through this, friend request me and I can chat you through it.

For proof that Mansus doors are not 'pure RNG' and that the card pools are quite small and predictable, maybe consider glancing over this. If you don't want to look at guides, simply scribble down what you find behind what door and you'll build your own guide in a matter of a playthrough or so.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1402660307

[Barsik_The_CaT]

That is still way too inconvenient.

[Ryan Dorkoski]

Originally posted by Barsik_The_CaT:

That is still way too inconvenient.

Not sure what you mean? I do know that it has nothing to do with RNG. It has to do with knowledge of the system. Follow the advice. Keep learning, and it'll get easy.

[Manxome]

For the Stag Door, specifically, there's an interesting subtle detail that is super helpful:

The cards from the three locations are correlated, such that I could almost always guess the values of the face-down cards based on looking at the face-up card.

If The Stag Door shows A Forgotten Chronicle, then the Ascent of Knives has An Urgency of Appetite and The Painted River has Forbidden Epic.

If The Stag Door shows A Trembling Heat, then the Ascent of Knives has A Bitter Atmosphere and The Painted River has Erudition.

If The Stag Door shows Subtle Rupture, then the Ascent of Knives has A Furious Air and The Painted River has Fascination.

I say "almost always" because one time after a reload the cards were off for one rotation (I saw each of the 3 visible cards one time, and the hidden cards were from the next paragraph down for those 3 dreams). But for dozens and dozens of trips both before and after that anomaly, they followed the pattern I list above.

Even taking the anomaly into account, it looks like if you only visit The Painted River when The Stag Door is showing A Forgotten Chronicle, you should NEVER get Fascination as a result (and will almost always get the card you want).

I'm not sure why The Stag Door, specifically, does this. I haven't found similar behavior anywhere else I've looked. Might be a bug; might be an easter egg.


Alternately, there's also a fairly obvious way for you to deal with Fascination at this point in the game:

There are several locations you can visit in the Mansus that have a chance of giving cards that decay into Dread but have no chance of giving Fascination, so you can just visit them over and over until you get what you need...and it doesn't take especially long on average.

The one that's staring you in the face is that you can dream of The Stag Door and visit the Ascent of Knives for a 1/3 chance of getting something that decays into Dread.

But it's perhaps more efficient to go to the White Door, which has a 2/3 chance.

That's still "RNG" in the sense that the number of tries before you get what you need is variable, but it has a high probability of getting you Dread and zero chance of getting Fascination, so as long as you stop doing things that risk giving you Fascination sometime before you have 3, this has a 100% chance of stopping the visions before they kill you.

If 100% chance of eventual success with an average time of a couple minute is still not good enough for you, then I think your strategy of not playing the game is probably the right choice for you. (But I wouldn't expect the game to change for you any time soon.)

[eva02soul]

How does the game determine what combination of cards out of the pool will be selected?

[Ryan Dorkoski]

Originally posted by eva02soul:

How does the game determine what combination of cards out of the pool will be selected?

For each pool, any of the cards in the pool has a chance to be drawn. Is the chance even? Idk. Doesn't matter for all practical purposes (why? Whenever I am fishing for a card it takes 3 or 4 visits MAX to get that card anecdotally). The post above has interesting info about making inferences from the face up card. That's news to me. Very interesting.

[Manxome]

Originally posted by Ryan Dorkoski:

Make sure you are always looking at what Season is coming up. That's a huge help. you can write the order down if you want, but I never found that necessary. Just knowing the next one is more than enough to make the game easy.

I wrote the order down long enough to convince myself that they don't follow any set order. You can see which one is coming up next, but the order they come up appears to be random.

[Ryan Dorkoski]

Originally posted by Manxome:

Originally posted by Ryan Dorkoski:

Make sure you are always looking at what Season is coming up. That's a huge help. you can write the order down if you want, but I never found that necessary. Just knowing the next one is more than enough to make the game easy.

I wrote the order down long enough to convince myself that they don't follow any set order. You can see which one is coming up next, but the order they come up appears to be random.

I was told (on two independant occassions) that they follow an order BUT I agree with you. Who cares because all you need to know is the next Season. I'll edit my post in case it's incorrect.

[Barsik_The_CaT]

Originally posted by Ryan Dorkoski:

Originally posted by Barsik_The_CaT:

That is still way too inconvenient.

Not sure what you mean? I do know that it has nothing to do with RNG. It has to do with knowledge of the system. Follow the advice. Keep learning, and it'll get easy.

>easy
>already need rotate summons to keep them alive, stuff expeditions, keep working, keep translating and researching, generate Secret Histories, deal with illness and dread and kill hunters/dispose of evidence
>will have to watch the so called seasons calendar and use semi-rng ways to deal with fascination
>easy
I am pretty sure our definitions of 'easy' differ drastically. There's a very thin line between game and chore and doing what you are suggesting means crossing that line.

[Ryan Dorkoski]

Originally posted by Barsik_The_CaT:

Originally posted by Ryan Dorkoski:

Not sure what you mean? I do know that it has nothing to do with RNG. It has to do with knowledge of the system. Follow the advice. Keep learning, and it'll get easy.

>easy
>already need rotate summons to keep them alive, stuff expeditions, keep working, keep translating and researching, generate Secret Histories, deal with illness and dread and kill hunters/dispose of evidence
>will have to watch the so called seasons calendar and use semi-rng ways to deal with fascination
>easy
I am pretty sure our definitions of 'easy' differ drastically. There's a very thin line between game and chore and doing what you are suggesting means crossing that line.

Seeing what Season is coming up next is two clicks, but okay.

I was just trying to help, but you don't want help - you want to vent. I've met others like you that find the game a chore (and usually this is a symptom of not fully understanding the mechanics). It's not for you. Best of luck.

[eva02soul]

The stag door is the main grind mill for the mansus so i had that already. They seem to be set groups of cards, with minor variation, and which group is chosen randomly.