It’s not RNG, it’s you

[Foolswalkin]

I’ve seen several posts lately complaining that some aspect of the game is too RNG-driven. In the specific posts I’m thinking of, there was something the author could have but wasn’t doing to control the gamestate, or the author had figured out one particular way to solve a problem on a previous run and frustrated that it wasn’t spawning readily rather than looking for alternatives. I’m not trying to pile on any criticism, but just propose this: in a game of experimentation and exploration, if you feel like the only out is grinding an RNG it’s worth considering whether you’ve got an accurate picture of all your options, or if the barricade you’re banging your head against blocks the only road.

There are certainly random elements in Cultist Simulator - e.g. you can know what your possible draws will be from facedown cards in the Mansus, but you can’t know which one you’ll get. But the game gives lots of tools for managing or bypassing with the randomness, or preparing defenses ahead of time against the downside of a gamble. Identifying RNG as the problem makes the locus of the problem the game mechanics rather than the player’s skill-level at managing those, serving as a block to a growth-mindset.

This is not to say people ought not vent their frustration over a bad loss. But it’s hard to learn if your mindset is helplessness in the face of randomness, and as far as I can tell, learning how to get the results you want given the RNG is what the game *is.*

[myhr2]

Well, it all boils down to the fact that the game is not accessible, both in terms of mechanics and in terms of Lore...but it's also a big part of its charm, as it's clearly one of its main features.
It reminds me a LOT of Darkest Dungeon in the sense that you have to anticipate and think ahead a lot to minimize undesirable outcomes, which is, I feel, a great way to translate into game mechanics the feeling of existential horror of lovecraftian fame.

With the notable difference that in DD, you can never truly reduce RNG's impact to 0, because you're playing adventurers confronting eldritch horrors on the battlefield (you don't control crits, dodges, and monster attacks, plus a few mechanics like surprise attacks, ambushes, and wandering mini-bosses), whereas in Cultist Simulator, your can truly anticipate almost everything, like the sneaky cunning ruthless master cultist you are (you can dismiss rebellious spirits, control your Notoriety production, completely avoid needless random actions, and so on...)

[Foolswalkin]

I like the parallel, but it highlights another significant difference - DD hits you with penalties if you stall in combat, while CS seems perfectly happy with you taking your sweet time if you can manage the pop-up problems and have a decent cash flow.

Sure, expeditions don’t let you delay once you’re in, but it’s not hard to adequately prep with summons before running the hard ones.

[Sarasvato]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1410630500
Run a knock cult, never get better than lvl 4 knock lore. What tool do the game give me to bypass that?

[Ryan Dorkoski]

I agree 100% with OP. Respectfully, what they state is just a fact. Until you understand how everything works, you may have a false sense of overly high RNG, but it's just not the case. Once I figured it out, I haven't lost once (going on 4 or so wins in a row now). If I do, it's only really because I got sloppy. I have easily won every expedition in the last 25 hours of play. There is no magic or luck involved.

The other thing that can give wrong ideas to the non-veteran player is the fact that bad decisions early game can totally ruin you later. If you make poor decisions with cards that you can't get back - that sort of thing. Thankfully these decisions force you to learn quick, so you don't do it again.

[Ryan Dorkoski]

Originally posted by Sarasvato:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1410630500
Run a knock cult, never get better than lvl 4 knock lore. What tool do the game give me to bypass that?

Combine lore? Am I understanding the question correctly?

[xenxander]

Originally posted by Ryan Dorkoski:

Originally posted by Sarasvato:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1410630500
Run a knock cult, never get better than lvl 4 knock lore. What tool do the game give me to bypass that?

Combine lore? Am I understanding the question correctly?

Yeah. I never have an issue upgrading knock to lv.10 if I need it.

[Ryan Dorkoski]

Originally posted by xenxander:

Originally posted by Ryan Dorkoski:

Combine lore? Am I understanding the question correctly?

Yeah. I never have an issue upgrading knock to lv.10 if I need it.

It's debatably the easiest lore to upgrade because you can match it with anything.

It just furthers the OPs point, really. I mean that respectfully. The game seems like one thing when you are new-ish and everything is obscure. I think this is a good thread for those learning things to understand and trust that 'yeah, this isn't an RNG thing'.

[myhr2]

The onlyreally annoying RNG aspect I can think of is the Stag riddle one : The Lore type required to solve the riddle is randomly generated each game, and it can be a bit painful if you're unlucky with the Books and rewards from the level 1-3 Expeditions, you'll have to keep doing repeatable Expeditions, which are harder and have less rewards that the unique ones. You can screw yourself if you're not careful with Lore combining here...or try to combine SH Lore to go on higher unique expeditions, but what a grind...

[Ryan Dorkoski]

Originally posted by myhr2:

The onlyreally annoying RNG aspect I can think of is the Stag riddle one : The Lore type required to solve the riddle is randomly generated each game, and it can be a bit painful if you're unlucky with the Books and rewards from the level 1-3 Expeditions, you'll have to keep doing repeatable Expeditions, which are harder and have less rewards that the unique ones. You can screw yourself if you're not careful with Lore combining here...or try to combine SH Lore to go on higher unique expeditions, but what a grind...

False. The answer is always level 6 lore, and there is nothing random about it save for which question you get - and there aren't many. You can look up exactly what aspect it is (if you don't write it down from previous runs). Just combine lore until you get level 6 - it takes me a matter of minutes at that point in the game because you should have exhausted at least the store, and probably the auction. And don't forget you can deconstruct higher tier lore, too.

Annnndd again, there is very little meaningful RNG here. Yes there is an obscure system that may make it feel like there is strong RNG elements - but that quickly fades as you learn more and more.

[UncertainZero]

With all due respect, the OPs argment is pretty misguided.

The game is deliberately obscure with no guide or tutorial covering what happens when. The people who know all the actions and how to manipulate the RNG arn't complaining about the randomness, they are complaining the game is too easy.

The people complaining about the randomness don't actually have the tools to manipulate the RNG because they simply don't have the hours invested to memorize each obscure action (and the game, by design, doesn't provide these answers). In which case, since it's the design of the game to obscure those things, it *is* RNG to them and they are understandbly frustrated.

The game is a lot of fun but it approaching this argument from the perspective of knowing all the actions totally ignores a signifant part of the experience which is playing the game, not knowing anything about it.

[Ryan Dorkoski]

Originally posted by UncertainZero:

With all due respect, the OPs argment is pretty misguided.

The game is deliberately obscure with no guide or tutorial covering what happens when. The people who know all the actions and how to manipulate the RNG arn't complaining about the randomness, they are complaining the game is too easy.

The people complaining about the randomness don't actually have the tools to manipulate the RNG because they simply don't have the hours invested to memorize each obscure action (and the game, by design, doesn't provide these answers). In which case, since it's the design of the game to obscure those things, it *is* RNG to them and they are understandbly frustrated.

The game is a lot of fun but it approaching this argument from the perspective of knowing all the actions totally ignores a signifant part of the experience which is playing the game, not knowing anything about it.

I disagree. I wish you would use in-game examples, because usually that is where things can just get explained in a very concrete/non-abstract manner. Basically, that's where we can usually factually explain that it's not RNG, regardless of how it 'feels' (just take a look at some questions above in this thread, and the explanations that follow).

As soon as you start following the seasons, and checking to see what season is coming up next - at least that is when all thoughts of RNG and real difficulty went out the window for me.

Ultimately, again, it may 'look' like RNG, but it just isn't. 'Feeling like' and 'being in reality' are just two different things when it comes to game mechanics. In fact, plenty of classic roguelikes use this approach successfully (NetHack being a great example).

While you may be right with how you describe some people's feelings about it - they should know that this isn't RNG. They just need to keep learning. And that is why I think this thread is quite useful for those that are maybe getting frustrated.

[agent8261]

I’ve beaten the game, edited the save file, read a ton of different guides on all the mechanics. I still say the game is still to random. The degree and type of random that is fun, however, is going to vary from player to player. Darkest Dungeon’s randomness is absolutely terrible. This game doesn’t get that bad, though because you actually can avoid and mitigate it.

Randomness in this game just makes you grind more. So complaints about random are often complaints about grinding. Furthermore in a game focused on discovery, randomness distracts from it. When you thought you found a solution and then that solution suddenly fails on you, well now you realize you don't actually have a solution. That sort of sours a player. The game is no longer about discovering cool things, it about discovering the specific thing among all the red herrings.

Some concrete examples of randomness. Spoilers ahead:

Expeditions and dealing with notoriety. First random is the seasons. I think expeditions can take longer than two seasons to complete. The means you could end up with an investigation season immediately upon completion of an expedition or one season away from one. Randomly you would have less than one season to deal with notoriety. The only non-random way to deal notoriety is as a board member, and that can randomly be lost via notoriety. Alright so that means you now have evidence.

Dealing with evidence. Your choices are to stop doing anything that can generate notoriety, wait it out or summon a moth minion who can destroy the evidence. Gathering the stuff needed to summon the moth minion is also random.

[Ryan Dorkoski]

Originally posted by agent8261:

I’ve beaten the game, edited the save file, read a ton of different guides on all the mechanics. I still say the game is still to random. The degree and type of random that is fun, however, is going to vary from player to player. Darkest Dungeon’s randomness is absolutely terrible. This game doesn’t get that bad, though because you actually can avoid and mitigate it.

Randomness in this game just makes you grind more. So complaints about random are often complaints about grinding. Furthermore in a game focused on discovery, randomness distracts from it. When you thought you found a solution and then that solution suddenly fails on you, well now you realize you don't actually have a solution. That sort of sours a player. The game is no longer about discovering cool things, it about discovering the specific thing among all the red herrings.

Some concrete examples of randomness. Spoilers ahead:

Expeditions and dealing with notoriety. First random is the seasons. I think expeditions can take longer than two seasons to complete. The means you could end up with an investigation season immediately upon completion of an expectation or one season away from one. Randomly you would have less than one season to deal with notoriety. The only non-random way to deal notoriety is as a board member, and that can randomly be lost via notoriety. Alright so that means you now have evidence.

Dealing with evidence. Your choices are to stop doing anything that can generate notoriety, wait it out or summon a moth minion who can destroy the evidence. Gathering the stuff needed to summon the moth minion is also random.

Just physically hold the notoriety until the season passes. You can also hide it in a painting until it passes. You control time, so there is nothing stopping you from doing this forever. There are several ways to skin this cat. Also make sure to control what detective you are dealing with. If you start with a tough one, prioritize getting rid of him. Easy.

Evidence is never really a problem for the patient, but again, it sounds like you are playing in a rush. When evidence is created in my games, I was sloppy. But for me to lose a game over that would have been a series of mis-steps and bad decisions on my part. Sloppy playing.

Anyways, the bottom line is how come I cannot lose a run, now that I understand how it all works? Either you are playing too quickly/sloppy, or you really don't have everything figured yet.

Anyways, I'm done chatting. I'm sorry the game didn't click enough to get around the mechanics. Again, you could just be rushing things - just might not be your kind of game. Oh well, it happens.

[agent8261]

Originally posted by Ryan Dorkoski:

Evidence is never really a problem for the patient, but again, it sounds like you are playing in a rush

That's really the crux of the issue, You find dealing with all the randomness of the game compelling, I consider it excessive and lazy design. It's not terrible, I like the game, but it is disappointing that this is the only way that games can add difficulty.

[Aris]

Randomness in games is not there to add difficulty, but to add variety. If things weren't random all playthroughts would be exactly the same, which would make the game boring much faster.

For example, let's make seassons not random. So now they happen in the same sequence all the time. Then you could develop a deterministic strategy that works all the time, and you only have to repeat it without even thinking to win. Randomness is what forces you to adapt your strategy and change what you do all the time.

Imagine Tetris without randomness. Yeah, then people would stop complaining about rng making them lose, but the game would become extremelly boring extremelly fast.