Endgame too much random

[agent8261]

Endgame is terrible. Progress is gated behind all sort of randomness. Notoriety removal and destroying evidence, random check. Influence from dreams and Secret histories, random reward. Get prisoner for ambition, random check. Need season to level mark, random order.

You need to right random things to happen at the just the right time. If this was a short game that would be OK, but after you spent hours just to get to that point, the degree of randomness starts to really wear.

Personally, I think minions, prisoners and corpse should be permanent. Maybe add another season, “Grim Upkeep,” that takes some funds for each of them you have.

[Faey]

Prisoners are not really random. Hire a Hireling (50% change when exploring the city with health/follower) and imprison them using your HQ. Yes, technically the 50% chance is random, but it's a high enough chance, and the alternative result is really quick, that it's not an issue.

Late game is basically grinding though, yes.

[myhr2]

Obviously, spoilers for engame here :

You can manage Notoriety without having to rely on luck (basically, never be in a situation where you generate more than 1 Notoriety at the same time, and you're mostly in the clear), and don't forget that Hearth disciples can never die anyway. Tempering with Tentative Evidence, if you don't generate Notoriety, is never worth it imho, just let it expire. If you're cautious, you'll never ever see a Damning Evidence, which is the only evidence that is really dangerous and where you kinda have to try to remove it.

You can extend a Hireling's service indefinitely with the Talk verb, either just by talking, or talking and paying money to reset its timer, so it's another way to capitalize on the randomness of recruitment.

That being said, it would be nice to have some use for high-level Lore beside the fact that they give summon recipes and succulent Lore tidbits. Maybe in a future DLC/update? More seasons is tricky, as it would alter the balancing of the flow of the game (making upgrading marks even more random)

Edit : also, if you're really annoyed by either Notoriety or Prisoners, you can always choose your Cult wisely : Hearth exalts always succeed at destroying Notoriety, and Grail exalts always succeed at generating prisoners.

[Quicksilver]

Either chose your cult to suit the hunter, or eliminate the hunters until you get one that suits your cult.

Talking to hirelings with funds resets their expiration timer, they are a fairly reliable source of prisoners if you value your cultists. (You can also hold the talk window open with the hireling slotted in, but not pressing start, if you are ok with cheese) It takes 10s to imprison someone, so you can just munch a pawn as soon as you notice the ambition season.

If you think RNG is trolling you, it's usually because you haven't noticed a way to bank a quick way to generate or remove a card, or are locking up a generation method with an alternate long task, without first popping a resource just in case.

[Quizer]

There's some random elements, but it's not as problematic as the OP makes it out to be. The problem I'm having in my current game is that I can't seem to get a mirror for the life of me, so I can't use the Peacock Gate.

But managing loss conditions is not that tricky once you get a handle on it. You can burn restlessness / dread / fascination in rituals and recruitment. You can easily get contentment to keep your dread in check before it gets really bad, and if you don't do anything you never get fascination, so if you are really careful, you are at no risk even with 2/3 visions.

As people have pointed out, you can get an unlimited supply of prisoners by getting hirelings and putting them in the cupboard. That will feed your ascension and spider door dreams. Besides, you should not worry about getting your ascension higher than level 3 before you are able to hit the required intensity of primary aspect and are ready to end the game.

I think the endgame could stand to be a little bit more elaborate / more epic. For most of the game you gather resources until suddenly the stars align and you can ascend rather suddenly. I feel like you should be required to do more stuff to win an ascension victory, like maybe going on an epic final expedition where you have to put in the desire card at the end to perform your ascension ritual, or something.

[Quizer]

Originally posted by myhr2:

Edit : also, if you're really annoyed by either Notoriety or Prisoners, you can always choose your Cult wisely : Hearth exalts always succeed at destroying Notoriety, and Grail exalts always succeed at generating prisoners.

Do Grail exalts not generate notoriety when performing their function? I've had a game with Edge exalts, and their abductions always work, but they generate notoriety.

[Foolswalkin]

IIRC Cyprians do still generate Notoriety, but “endgame” for me includes the concept “I killed all the named Hunters and it’s down to an endless series of Weary Detectives vs edge 10 summons” At that point, it’s just Hunter whack-a-mole and Notoriety isn’t really a problem.

Also, and I apologize for not being able to cite a source, but I believe Alexis said that there was a bug in the Tenacious code that was making it much more effective than it was supposed to be. So early game Tenacious Hunters may be less of an issue than they once were.

[agent8261]

Op here. I beat the game recently (enlightenment, lantern), however I used a money cheat. Going to play thru again without the money cheat just to prove I can.

I still feel that there is just way too much random. This reliance on billions of random check means you have to grind.

When I say endgame, I mean you have bought all the books from bookstore and auction house. After that you have to do the Notoriety, Fascination dance while pursuing more lore.

[Ryan Dorkoski]

Originally posted by agent8261:

Op here. I beat the game recently (enlightenment, lantern), however I used a money cheat. Going to play thru again without the money cheat just to prove I can.

I still feel that there is just way too much random. This reliance on billions of random check means you have to grind.

When I say endgame, I mean you have bought all the books from bookstore and auction house. After that you have to do the Notoriety, Fascination dance while pursuing more lore.

For me personally, that's early mid-game, but to each his own.

Are you summoning to help finish the game? Are you regularly opening the Peacock and Spider Doors? Are you chronically checking what season is coming up next and preparing appropriately (I bet this is your biggest problem)?

And if you are struggling a bit with money, simply level up painting and paint.

And congrats on finishing it!

[agent8261]

Originally posted by myhr2:

Obviously, spoilers for engame here :

You can manage Notoriety without having to rely on luck (basically, never be in a situation where you generate more than 1 Notoriety at the same time, and you're mostly in the clear), and don't forget that Hearth disciples can never die anyway. Tempering with Tentative Evidence, if you don't generate Notoriety, is never worth it imho, just let it expire. If you're cautious, you'll never ever see a Damning Evidence, which is the only evidence that is really dangerous and where you kinda have to try to remove it.

That's the problem though. You have to grind and slow play in order to avoid being hurt by the randomness. Personally I think it's pretty disappointing, but I sort of understand the design. My suggestion with permanent summons though allow players to prepare instead of grind.

[Ryan Dorkoski]

Originally posted by agent8261:

Originally posted by myhr2:

Obviously, spoilers for engame here :

You can manage Notoriety without having to rely on luck (basically, never be in a situation where you generate more than 1 Notoriety at the same time, and you're mostly in the clear), and don't forget that Hearth disciples can never die anyway. Tempering with Tentative Evidence, if you don't generate Notoriety, is never worth it imho, just let it expire. If you're cautious, you'll never ever see a Damning Evidence, which is the only evidence that is really dangerous and where you kinda have to try to remove it.

That's the problem though. You have to grind and slow play in order to avoid being hurt by the randomness. Personally I think it's pretty disappointing, but I sort of understand the design. My suggestion with permanent summons though allow players to prepare instead of grind.

Permanent summons would be so OP broken. Once you get it more figured, you'll find that to be just laughable. I'm sorry if that sounds offensive, but it's true.

Plus, you know you can keep up to 2 summons around for basically forever with Talk, right?

Tell me, what would you like to do that would generate more than 1 Notoriety at a time? I'm curious. How would that eliminate any kind of grind or bottleneck? I can think of a few small things, but I'm curious what your rationale is.

From reading a few of your posts on here - I think I can help. Learn what each season does (there aren't many, and they are one-trick ponies), and understand that you can click on the seasons verb, and see what season is coming next. Then prepare accordingly. I think that will take you a long way.

[agent8261]

Originally posted by Ryan Dorkoski:

Originally posted by agent8261:

Op here. I beat the game recently (enlightenment, lantern), however I used a money cheat. Going to play thru again without the money cheat just to prove I can.

I still feel that there is just way too much random. This reliance on billions of random check means you have to grind.

When I say endgame, I mean you have bought all the books from bookstore and auction house. After that you have to do the Notoriety, Fascination dance while pursuing more lore.

For me personally, that's early mid-game, but to each his own.

Are you summoning to help finish the game? Are you regularly opening the Peacock and Spider Doors? Are you chronically checking what season is coming up next and preparing appropriately (I bet this is your biggest problem)?

And if you are struggling a bit with money, simply level up painting and paint.

And congrats on finishing it!

I could see it as mid-late game. I break the game down into these steps:

1. Increase your abilities so that you can handle work and study.
2. Generate income. Goal: Buy all books, Get all disciple followers
3. Run expeditions. Goal: Gain the lore and tools needed for the final ritual.
4. Boost mark to 6th level. Goal: Perform final ritual

The difference is that in step 3 you HAVE to do things that cause Notoriety and Fascination. You don't in step 1 and 2. I tend to lump step 3 & 4 as end game.

Definitely checking the next season, but again due to the randomness of everything, one season isn't really enough to prepare for everything.

I use summons to prevent fascination, destroy evidence, and eliminate hunters (although I keep the weary detective).

The peacock door is HUGE PTA to open. Perfect example of the too much random I'm talking about. I saved my currency and opened it only to get what I needed for the last ritual.

[agent8261]

Originally posted by Ryan Dorkoski:

Permanent summons would be so OP broken.

I will respectfully disagree. It would at most mean you don't have to do the ritual again. I'm not sure how that is super broke. It save players some time, but I don't think it would drastically change the balance of the game. However I could see it being limited to 2 summons. I don't see how having a huge amount of prisoners or corpses is OP at all. In fact having permanent corpses might be a bad thing. That being said the new "Grim Upkeep" season would mitigate all of those issues.

Originally posted by Ryan Dorkoski:

Tell me, what would you like to do that would generate more than 1 Notoriety at a time?

Spoilers possibly ahead:
That's the problem, you really can't it's pretty dangerous to do so. If you want to gain a prisoner for the spider door and pull off a caper, you can't do that. Instead you have to do the safe way to gain prisoners, then do the capers. You can't multi task. In fact the game seems to discourage using cult members for anything dangerous.

Which now makes me wonder, what's the point of having bunch of cult members, if I can't use them for anything.

[Ryan Dorkoski]

Originally posted by agent8261:

Originally posted by Ryan Dorkoski:

Permanent summons would be so OP broken.

I will respectfully disagree. It would at most mean you don't have to do the ritual again. I'm not sure how that is super broke. It save players some time, but I don't think it would drastically change the balance of the game. However I could see it being limited to 2 summons. I don't see how having a huge amount of prisoners or corpses is OP at all. In fact having permanent corpses might be a bad thing. That being said the new "Grim Upkeep" season would mitigate all of those issues.

Originally posted by Ryan Dorkoski:

Tell me, what would you like to do that would generate more than 1 Notoriety at a time?

Spoilers possibly ahead:
That's the problem, you really can't it's pretty dangerous to do so. If you want to gain a prisoner for the spider door and pull off a caper, you can't do that. Instead you have to do the safe way to gain prisoners, then do the capers. You can't multi task. In fact the game seems to discourage using cult members for anything dangerous.

Which now makes me wonder, what's the point of having bunch of cult members, if I can't use them for anything.

If you can't use them for anything, they aren't leveled enough. Mine only (possibly) fail when I take an assumed risk. It's why I literally *never* lose an expedition anymore.

Anyways I'm done trying to set things straight about RNG with you. I appreciate a good discussion, but this is going nowhere. You either need to learn more, or maybe you are just trying to play this like an action game - too fast. Idk.

Take care and thanks for your thoughts.

[myhr2]

Cult members are here for expeditions, they make the numbers required to pass the events, and you can check in advance what the events will require. Just make sure to name disposable resource (like Hirelings and Summons, eventually Pawns) as Leader and first assistant of an expedition, and complete the ranks with Disciples as you go. Heck, the expeditions events are not even randomized so you could in theory take notes and send the correct disciples from the beginning. This means that you shouldn't start expeditions before having all your Cult members recruited and promoted to Disciple, which, yeah, can take a whiiiiiiiiiiile.

And I feel you for the Notoriety, you just can't start an Expedition just after completing another, or make a special painting during an Expedition, or capture a prisoner with your Exalts, and never ever try to destroy a Tentative Evidence, or kill a Hunter with someone that has less than 10 Edge, or try to fascinate/depress a Hunter, and so on, and so on...Even going to the Club isn't worth it, sadly, it's basically a quick lottery for desperate times that can screw you even further.

I also agree that reforging Mirrors to pass the Peackock Door in my endgame playthrough where I try to assemble all the ultimate Lore level is a bit tedious.

On the other hand, it fits the theme and atmosphere of the game, you need to be cautious, maybe even a bit on the paranoic side of things, to succeed, and you have to take things slooooow to be safe. If you want to press things, you are taking risks, it's kinda the point.

[Quizer]

Originally posted by agent8261:

When I say endgame, I mean you have bought all the books from bookstore and auction house. After that you have to do the Notoriety, Fascination dance while pursuing more lore.

Uh, no. Having emptied out the bookstore and auction house means you are now in the mid-game. I'd say late-game is when you have a full roster of disciples, have your exalts, have a solid collection of lore of tier 3/6 (half circle) or better across the board, and have unlocked at least the spider door.

Anyway, having a bunch of notoriety at once isn't so bad if you don't already have evidence lying around, and are prepared to deal with evidence and hunters. Notoriety lasts only 300 seconds, so if you have a lot, most of it will decay before it can be grabbed. A dead hunter cannot use that Damning Evidence to convict you. Rolling up a new hunter will eat one notoriety (or mystique) without negative consequences. If you make sure to have summons ready to deal with evidence as it is created, you can go as nuts as you like on generating notoriety. If things are dire, you can hold a hunter to force the game to make another one instead of the existing one investigating, or holding evidence to force him to make fresh tentative evidence instead of grabbing whatever evidence already exists.