Is hacking TOO strong?

[Blacksun388]

So after a full run of the campaign and getting my bearings on the gameplay I restarted the campaign again and started actually trying to strategize. Having my hacker Gamera sit in his hacker cave in America and hack the Gibson with that sweet, sweet 3 hardware rating is just incredibly broken in the early game. Having the hacker lower the alarm rating of anywhere (nobody except Japan was apparently on their game for that month) I deployed my agents to to 20% or less right out of the gate made extracting scientists an absolute walk in the park, and before I got to the event where my wife is killed (strangely taking the route where I give up some of my Sigma research in exchange for her life seems to just be stuck on the mission dialogue box. I can click the response at the end of the message chain and the game just sort of sits there and doesn't continue even though nothing crashes. I've already sent a bug report about it.) I'm already sitting at almost a full deck of sigma scientists and unlocking breakthroughs left, right, and center. I usually don't begrudge an easy victory but come on dude! The other nations pretty much never had a chance.

[ZenMonkey]

What level easy, normal, hard?

[Threeist]

I've played through the game a few times as well.

Hacking can do five things:
-Give you Tech / cause loss of tech
-Give you Ransomware (and let's face it, Ransomware should be some kind of research debuff so that it sucks to have it and it's worth getting fixed or negotiated)
-Delete Arrest Records
-Locate ALL of the Scientists
-MAKE THE GAME SUPER EASY BY COMPLETELY ROCKING THE ALERT LEVEL!!!

And if they're caught:
-Alert level can go up (but see above) and
-Diplo relations take a hit.
-Oh, and you can hack the same nation immediately afterward, because why not?

Meanwhile:
Having someone on the ground can
-Actually do Exfiltrations (Critical)
-Very slowly locate A scientist
--For some reason, the best move is to counter-abduct imprisoned scientists.
-Gain knowledge on targets
-Get weapons (This seems to do little)
-Do Recon
-They risk capture, death, and raising the alert level quite rapidly.

Hackers make good 'fullbacks' to address enemy agents in your country, and I actually find Akuilleu (Sp?) to be an excellent choice. They're generally able to stop enemy agents, even if they can't capture them, and they have very little downtime (whereas guns on the ground need time for logistics)

---

if we want to balance out the game, I think guys on the ground should get some additional benefits:
-Assassination: Guys on the ground can target
--Scientists (Which has diplomatic consequences)
--Foreign Secretary (If successful, rerolls the diplomat and refreshes possible scandals)
--Enemy Operatives: Here's a novel answer to your basement hacker--use more gun.
--Sigma Head: Extremely hard, but generally sets back everything and might even cause a nation to quit. After all, AI players can hit and KO the player, why not do it back?

--Diversion: Guys on the ground get a way to directly reduce alert level themselves.

--Tactical Victory (While at War): Make the other country WANT TO END the conflict instead of passively continuing to their own possible demise. AI Nations should be conducting diplomacy to their own benefit, but if they're not 'full players' then at least have some way that they don't want to blow themselves up.

-Screw over criminal society threats.
--It's kinda silly that criminal gangs can automatically succeed on their threats against government organizations. So, what if they didn't? It would logically be tied to strength.

So I think the real answer to this is buff the guys on the ground. It would also mean that someone like Gamera needs a Gun on the Ground to avoid getting assassinated at home.

[ZenMonkey]

Escrito originalmente por Threeist:

-Get weapons (This seems to do little)

Weapons are important to some agents because they fight better with them. Also taking a weapon with you to a location takes longer to get there... so you might be in a situation where you can't spend a lot of time traveling, you might need someone to smuggle weapons in so you can fast travel and still have your weapon. Whats great about the game is that you have ways to adapt to situations the game throws at you. You might not see the reason for something right off the bat but you might have a encounter that frescoes you to use one of those techniques

[Threeist]

I get it, but 'smuggle weapon' seems very low on the time/payoff exchange rate.
If the best thing you can do with an agent is exfiltrate a Genius Prisoner Scientist, Recon/Smuggle Weapons is dominated by 'Lower Alert Level' and then, at 0%, get one encounter and leave.

If you're at 0% alert level, Gun on the Ground will get 1 encounter and, if you throw the observer drone at it, that's likely it.

Conceptually, Guns on the Ground should be high reward, high risk and hacking should be lower reward lower risk, Instead, we have high reward, low risk for hacking, high reward for one mission only (Exfiltrate), otherwise low reward for Gun on the Ground.

Arguably, Sigma Theory should either be balanced between GotG / Hackers or it should be balanced GotG / Hackers / Diplomats; there would need to be a lot of changes to diplomacy if it were to become a game-winning option.

[Antiriad]

Well - when you realise that the hackers can shortcut you getting the scientist info, then from there you will quickly pack your team with expert hackers. And the rest is as they say history - sure it won't be long till you figure out how to get the 2200 perfect score like I did....good luck.

[ZenMonkey]

Escrito originalmente por Threeist:

I get it, but 'smuggle weapon' seems very low on the time/payoff exchange rate.
If the best thing you can do with an agent is exfiltrate a Genius Prisoner Scientist, Recon/Smuggle Weapons is dominated by 'Lower Alert Level' and then, at 0%, get one encounter and leave.

If you're at 0% alert level, Gun on the Ground will get 1 encounter and, if you throw the observer drone at it, that's likely it.

Conceptually, Guns on the Ground should be high reward, high risk and hacking should be lower reward lower risk, Instead, we have high reward, low risk for hacking, high reward for one mission only (Exfiltrate), otherwise low reward for Gun on the Ground.

Arguably, Sigma Theory should either be balanced between GotG / Hackers or it should be balanced GotG / Hackers / Diplomats; there would need to be a lot of changes to diplomacy if it were to become a game-winning option.

I disagree. What lowering the risk to 0% is going to eat time, getting drones into the mix is going to east time too, or maybe your drone is busy on another mission at that time. Don;t get me wrong, I have no doubt the game feels to easy for you and your play style. I'm just saying that for me the game is a race, you trying to get to the top before the clock runs out, hackers, drones, weapons, agents, what you do and what you don't do all has a part to play in this big puzzle. It's a management game.

[ZenMonkey]

Escrito originalmente por Antiriad:

Well - when you realise that the hackers can shortcut you getting the scientist info, then from there you will quickly pack your team with expert hackers. And the rest is as they say history - sure it won't be long till you figure out how to get the 2200 perfect score like I did....good luck.

What expert hackers?

[Antiriad]

Escrito originalmente por Kaijudo:

Escrito originalmente por Antiriad:

Well - when you realise that the hackers can shortcut you getting the scientist info, then from there you will quickly pack your team with expert hackers. And the rest is as they say history - sure it won't be long till you figure out how to get the 2200 perfect score like I did....good luck.

What expert hackers?

.Gamera is available from the start in Japan but the other good hackers might need to be unlocked characters. You'll see the difference immediately between someone like .Gamera and someone else like .Mystery who has high intel but no hacking trait. Try it dude! Although they won't always succeed, particularly if the defence is 3stars, but eventually they will be completely infallible if you know how to build them up.

Answering the original post basically I haven't found any other way to get the high score other than using hackers. Are they too strong? As far as I can see, they are the only way to ACE the game.......

[Threeist]

Escrito originalmente por Kaijudo:

Escrito originalmente por Threeist:

See my previous post

I disagree. What lowering the risk to 0% is going to eat time, getting drones into the mix is going to east time too, or maybe your drone is busy on another mission at that time. Don;t get me wrong, I have no doubt the game feels to easy for you and your play style. I'm just saying that for me the game is a race, you trying to get to the top before the clock runs out, hackers, drones, weapons, agents, what you do and what you don't do all has a part to play in this big puzzle. It's a management game.

It doesn't take a lot of time to get to 0%.
It takes a lot of actions. And that difference is critical.

It takes two, perhaps three successful hacks to drop an alert to 0%.
But you can hack a country multiple times in PARALLEL, rather than SERIAL.

So you can, using your whole team, get a scientist on day 3. And Day 6, etc. Counter Agents require responses, but captured agents plus compromising materials can also be used to parley scientists, or, frankly, you can just have them sit in prison until their host country abandons the Sigma Race.

Hacking gives major synergy advantages, outcomes disproportionate to the risks, and Sigma Theory is not balanced. Either Guns on the Ground need to have some kind of super cool effects, or Hacking needs to be nerfed.

[thewifiwhisperer]

I've only played regular mode. But hackers are a 'force multiplier'. Sure, they might suck at seducing or exfiltrating, but they make the job so much easier for the others. 2 turns to locate/identify most/all scientists, without leaving the comfort of your own base? Awesome.

Especially their lack of travel time makes them really productive. In the time that another agent infiltrates and recons a location, the skilled hacker has already located the scientists, reduced the alarm level, and installed some ransomware, for good measure.

[ZenMonkey]

Escrito originalmente por Antiriad:

Escrito originalmente por Kaijudo:

What expert hackers?

.Gamera is available from the start in Japan but the other good hackers might need to be unlocked characters. You'll see the difference immediately between someone like .Gamera and someone else like .Mystery who has high intel but no hacking trait. Try it dude! Although they won't always succeed, particularly if the defence is 3stars, but eventually they will be completely infallible if you know how to build them up.

Answering the original post basically I haven't found any other way to get the high score other than using hackers. Are they too strong? As far as I can see, they are the only way to ACE the game.......

Yeah I'm going to try those. I know I have Gamera, I still have a few agents to unlock. Too bad the devs don't chime in. I really suspect hacking probably had a higher fail rate but gamers were complaining about RNG. I don;t get that. I don;t think every game needs RNG, a game like GTA 5 doesn't need RNG, it should be about your skill, but a game that runs like a RPG Tabletop game needs RNG to simulate failure and success on a mission.

[ZenMonkey]

Escrito originalmente por Threeist:

Escrito originalmente por Kaijudo:

I disagree. What lowering the risk to 0% is going to eat time, getting drones into the mix is going to east time too, or maybe your drone is busy on another mission at that time. Don;t get me wrong, I have no doubt the game feels to easy for you and your play style. I'm just saying that for me the game is a race, you trying to get to the top before the clock runs out, hackers, drones, weapons, agents, what you do and what you don't do all has a part to play in this big puzzle. It's a management game.

It doesn't take a lot of time to get to 0%.
It takes a lot of actions. And that difference is critical.

It takes two, perhaps three successful hacks to drop an alert to 0%.
But you can hack a country multiple times in PARALLEL, rather than SERIAL.

So you can, using your whole team, get a scientist on day 3. And Day 6, etc. Counter Agents require responses, but captured agents plus compromising materials can also be used to parley scientists, or, frankly, you can just have them sit in prison until their host country abandons the Sigma Race.

Hacking gives major synergy advantages, outcomes disproportionate to the risks, and Sigma Theory is not balanced. Either Guns on the Ground need to have some kind of super cool effects, or Hacking needs to be nerfed.

When I said time I meant rounds/turns which can also be called actions.

Drop an alert level that's at 50%? I think the highest I seen was maybe 90%, can you get that down in 3 turns?... I'm not debating, just asking if it can be done. I only try to lower threats if it's to high.

I just did a quick hacker test, this was on my first try with 3 hackers... I didn't try to lower the threat level, I just wanted to do a scientist sweep, all of them failed, they didn;t get caught, but they just failed lol....

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1940081123

I was playing classic mode. How many times have you beat the game using hackers?

Yes I agree we need some more super cool effects. I thought unlocking some of the sigma stuff  would give us some cool gadgets. I mean the perks we get are fun, but it doesn't really feel like a spy vs spy game to me yet, it feels more like a strategy game where you gather inelegance on your opponents while trying not to get caught. It's not a bad thing it just makes the AI seem like they're not doing much to counter you.  

[ZenMonkey]

Escrito originalmente por thewifiwhisperer:

I've only played regular mode. But hackers are a 'force multiplier'. Sure, they might suck at seducing or exfiltrating, but they make the job so much easier for the others. 2 turns to locate/identify most/all scientists, without leaving the comfort of your own base? Awesome.

Especially their lack of travel time makes them really productive. In the time that another agent infiltrates and recons a location, the skilled hacker has already located the scientists, reduced the alarm level, and installed some ransomware, for good measure.

How many hackers are you using?... and you still need to use the agents to get those scientist, I mean intel can only do so much. The hackers get the intel the agents act on that intel, the hackers work to try to make the mission as safe as possible for them, but the agent still has to get in, plus you have the agents traits and skills that could mess things up even if the threat level is 0%... I don;t doubt you had some good runs, but I don't think hackers are 100% win approved.

I think instead of a hacker nerf it would have been better if the hackers sometimes got false intel, so you're left with a choice of go in or not.

[thewifiwhisperer]

Maybe we're not on the same page, but when I say hacker, I typically mean "an agent with the hacking trait". Typically one with high intelligence, like Gamera, Leak or K.

I want at least one, two of them works really well, too.

and you still need to use the agents to get those scientist, I mean intel can only do so much.

That's exactly what 'force multiplier' means. They can't win it by themselves, but they make the other agents crazy productive.

Low alert level means the exfiltration is a cake walk, and if things do go wrong somehow (If you picked Punch for example), the hacker can easily remove the arrest warrant and raised alerts.

Admission: I had been struggling in making progress with the game (and its mechanics), until I saw this thread, tried with Gamera, and subsequently won the game in about 2 months flat.

I think instead of a hacker nerf it would have been better if the hackers sometimes got false intel, so you're left with a choice of go in or not.

Or maybe it's more that the intel from boots on the ground could be a bit more competitive.

It's not the only place where gameplay mechanics are unbalanced. For example, interrogation of a captured agent can be crazy effective too. Especially that question where you get to set the alert level to 0.

To be honest the best nerf I think is that in order to hack, you should be local, like any other spycraft. That way at least arrest warrants mean something, and travel time becomes a consideration. Not to forget that it means your smart hacker cannot also be the 'home defense' to identify foreign spies operating in your home.

And it's pretty conceivable that Sigma would have a physically separate, only local accessible network, that the hacker would need to tap into.