Sonic Mania will be a failure

[Intonarumori (#safeTF2)]

Nowadays I see much hype about this future game. People consider Sonic Mania the game that SEGA had to be made from the beginning, the title that all of us were waiting for 21 years, Sonic game are garbage since 1995 (except the overrated Adventures)... but I disagree with all of that because this reasons:
1. Giving the development to some inexpert fans: I wonder why SEGA has circumventing the Sonic Team? This studio has professional programmers (exploited and shackled by their managers, but professionals). Instead of that, these subcontracted some amateur programmers that have little experience about making serious videogames (except PagodaWest).
2. Collect in old formats: I consider Sonic games since 2001 (not including rubbish like 2006 or Boom Rise of Lyric) pretty underrated. This is because I recognize the effort of searching for an appropriate formula to make games in 3D (or change the games in 2D), although the result leaves a lot to be desired in some aspects. But Sonic Mania is the same that everyone saw long time ago, and above the gameplay is based on Sonic CD (many people hate this game because of its level design, although I like it).
3. Delaying the release to 2017: Rushing the development of games is bad (remember 2006), but give a long time is no guarantee that the game will be good. Do you know that Aliens Colonial Marines took about 7 years to be completed? Does anyone else remember Mighty No 9 or Duke Nukem Forever? It´s possible that Taxman and Stealth aren´t doing anything until last moment (except three demo levels).
4. That demo levels... They seem spectacular, but is possible that happen something similar as Watch Dogs.
5. The Collector´s edition: A pack for collectors for sale before the release of the game… this looks increasingly worse.
6. Digital distribution: If it is not going to sell in a physical format, I am sure that they will fail (even if in the end leaves a good title)
I hope I am wrong, but a resounding failure in critical and public I see very likely. It may even be worse than Sonic Genesis GBA.

[Intonarumori (#safeTF2)]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Chocolate Coating:

And not to personally attack you, but I get the feeling you're just mentioning ET et al. as examples of bad video games in order to sound "hip" without actually having a clue just how bad they purportedly are and why. I mean, I've never played Sonic '06, but I've seen video reviews by people who knew what they were doing, and I've played Sonic Adventure, from which Sonic '06 borrows its gameplay, so when I say Sonic '06's bad, I'm not just being an echo. (And I don't have to have played it to call its story bad, at the very least.) I don't just go around blindly invoking, say, ET or Hydlide or the Final Fantasy X "fake laughter" scene when I want to make a comparison of poorness of quality, because despite their extreme infamy, I've never actually experienced what people found bad about those things.

I admit that I didn´t play Big Rigs (but I saw some gameplays which show enough to consider that a piece of crap). But I played ET on an Atari 2600 emulator. The game is pretty bad, but not the worst game of all time (not even the worst of Atari 2600).

[wookiecharmander]

But project Sonic 2017 will be awesome right

[Intonarumori (#safeTF2)]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Possibly Wookiecharmander:

But project Sonic 2017 will be awesome right

Nobody out of SEGA knows what kind of game will be... even the real name is a mystery.
But if Sonic Mania fails miserably, I´m sure that Proyect Sonic 2017 will be canceled as Sonic Xtreme.

[Leonard]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από 377A hero:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Possibly Wookiecharmander:

But project Sonic 2017 will be awesome right

Nobody out of SEGA knows what kind of game will be... even the real name is a mystery.
But if Sonic Mania fails miserably, I´m sure that Proyect Sonic 2017 will be canceled as Sonic Xtreme.

Fine, let them cancel Proyect Sonic 2017 but they won't cancel our Sonic Project 2017!

[Intonarumori (#safeTF2)]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Leonard:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από 377A hero:

Nobody out of SEGA knows what kind of game will be... even the real name is a mystery.
But if Sonic Mania fails miserably, I´m sure that Proyect Sonic 2017 will be canceled as Sonic Xtreme.

Fine, let them cancel Proyect Sonic 2017 but they won't cancel our Sonic Project 2017!

WTF????????

[Leonard]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από 377A hero:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Leonard:

Fine, let them cancel Proyect Sonic 2017 but they won't cancel our Sonic Project 2017!

WTF????????

Oh No!

[XXXXXX]

I read all the responces and I cant say I really understand whats going on... but I will say this. While it looked like some valid points were being made for and against both games, lets try to look at this from a more objective angle. Firstly, the games have not been released, but we do know that both sets of developers have proven themselves to output quality content when under similar circumstances. Anyone who has played both versions of sonic cd (the gc and scd) can tell you that the gc is pretty abysmal, you cant even hold a decent time travel spark without the game clipping it away, most of the time. Sonic cd on gems is filled with abundant annomalies like that, and it seemingly finalised the notion that sonic cd could not work on any console besides the scd. From this magnificent dumster fire, christian whitehead fixed and improved the game to something that I think surpasses the original. That and the sonic 1/sonic 2 remakes basically fixed the games in ways that many didnt even know were defective. (Ok well they couldent fix those awful sonic 2 special stages but they got pretty close.) That track record leads me to believe that christian whitehead is at the least, more qualified to make a 2d sonic game than, say, dimps, but we have to remember, he also has help from two other studios. Both of which I admittedly know nothing about.

So since sonic mania has at least a third of a competent team, we can move on to project 2017. For that I issue a question, are the 3d sonic games, made by (the new) sonic team really that bad? By new I mean anything after sonic and the secret rings, so basically Unleashed, colors, and generations. None of these games are bad, (and no, the werehog was not THAT bad) All three feature fun action stages that yes, do not have the same focus as the 2d classics. These three games focus on keeping speed through obstacles rather than gaining and keeping it. Admittedly, it is a far cry from the classics, which argueably have a greater focus on using momentum to gain an advantage (not always speed sometimes its jumping off a loop etc.) over the stages themselves. Finally, I want to state that sonic team obviously has a better knwoledge of the boost formula, rather than trying to recreate the adventure style. This is because they have made games more recently that utilise the formula, and the team itsself was created after secret rings so... yeah. Sonic team has also proven that they work better under longer deadlines; and one of the many things unleashed, colors, and generations share is a two year development time. Sonic 2017 got three years.

Speaking from a purely historical standpoint, this may be the one sonic game where there is a greater chance that it will be flawless than it will be a broken mess.

But will either of these games save the series? Sadly, I dont think their quality matters anymore. One of the things the last horrible year can tell us is that the disguesting meme culture we all sounder in has a huge impact on how we think, act, and vote. How many times have you heard a ridiculous harambe joke, or seen idiots flipping water bottles? Regardless, the idea that "Sonic will always be bad" is so ingrained in our culture that it may never fully recover. What is worse is that the west is the blue thunderclaps only market, this is not like the early 2000s backlash from pokemon; where the Japaneese market was there to hold it up. If the west abandons sonic, we all lose him forever.

The future of sonic is in our hands and our hands alone my brothers, and by our hands, we can either leave it, content to regurgitate game grump propaganda that sonic hasnt been good since 94' or we can attempt to whitewash it, and save what is left for future generations. The survival of sonic is no longer propped upon the quality of the games alone. Sonic runners is a far better game than mario run, due to it being entirely free, but mario run still destroyed it in the media attention, and performance markets. Yes, the games need to be (and will be) good, but we need to change as a culture if they even have a chance of reversing the damage done by fat fedora-wearing teenagers intent on destroying all they dislike.

Wether you see it as the rebirth of a pheonix or a deathcry long overdue, lets make 2017 the year of the hedgehog, we owe it to our collective memories as fans to try.

[KirbyFan45]

My flame war scenes are tingling.

[Intonarumori (#safeTF2)]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Leonard:

What would have been a reasonable concern is the amount of rehashed levels in sonic mania.

Levels of Sonic Mania (filtered):
-Green Trill Hill
-Chemical Plant
-Studiopolis
-Metropolis Flying battery
-Press garden
-Stardust speedway
-Hydro City
- Dust Hill Mirage Saloon
-Oil ocean (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM54YwntL5Y)
-Lava Reef
-Metallic Madness
-Titanic Monarch
4 new leves out of 12... also too short... no ice level... connection with the hated Sonic Forces...
Sonic Mania won´t be a fail... BECAUSE IT ALREADY HAS!!!
Metacritic will be the last nail of the coffin (Jim Sterling incoming!).

[Intonarumori (#safeTF2)]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από BluFawx:

But will either of these games save the series? Sadly, I dont think their quality matters anymore. One of the things the last horrible year can tell us is that the disguesting meme culture we all sounder in has a huge impact on how we think, act, and vote. How many times have you heard a ridiculous harambe joke, or seen idiots flipping water bottles? Regardless, the idea that "Sonic will always be bad" is so ingrained in our culture that it may never fully recover. What is worse is that the west is the blue thunderclaps only market, this is not like the early 2000s backlash from pokemon; where the Japaneese market was there to hold it up. If the west abandons sonic, we all lose him forever.

Of course. Nowadays, the truth is overrated. Post-truth rules.

[funewchie]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από 377A hero:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Leonard:

What would have been a reasonable concern is the amount of rehashed levels in sonic mania.

Levels of Sonic Mania (filtered):
-Green Trill Hill
-Chemical Plant
-Studiopolis
-Metropolis Flying battery
-Press garden
-Stardust speedway
-Hydro City
- Dust Hill Mirage Saloon
-Oil ocean (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM54YwntL5Y)
-Lava Reef
-Metallic Madness
-Titanic Monarch
4 new leves out of 12... also too short... no ice level... connection with the hated Sonic Forces...
Sonic Mania won´t be a fail... BECAUSE IT ALREADY HAS!!!
Metacritic will be the last nail of the coffin (Jim Sterling incoming!).

First of all, the game was built with nostalgia in mind, to especially attract the fans of the Genesis games.

Second, those stage themes have to be used, because those are all different elements. If you have an underwater ruins level, it's inevitably going to be compared to Aquatic Ruins or Hydrocity.

Third, we have no idea how long the game will be or how tough it will be.

Fourth, if it doesn't actually have an ice level, then thank goodness! Who actually liked Ice Cap zone (besides for its atmosphere and music)?

Fifth... "hated Sonic Forces"? What on earth are you talking about?
That game hasn't even come out yet, and is well talked about, even now. It hasn't succeeded or failed.

Personally, I'm very much looking forward to Sonic Forces (although it'll have to be the PC version for me, as I don't have a Switch or Xbox One).
Even moreso than Sonic Mania.
(I've got nothing against Sonic Mania, I just I don't really enjoy 2D platformers in general anymore. That goes for Sonic, Mario, etc.)

And what is Metacritic?
To be honest, I haven't listened to gaming critics since before G4 stole TechTv from us. The so-called "reviewers" and "critics" basically say that any game that isn't Gears of War or Bioshock is garbage.
I say to those critics: I'll play the games and make my own judgements, thank you very much.

[Intonarumori (#safeTF2)]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από funewchie:

First of all, the game was built with nostalgia in mind, to especially attract the fans of the Genesis games.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but i think that the nostalgia factor (and other kinds of fanservice) should disappear from the gaming industry. As a detail is not bad, but not as a entire game.
Developers should be always in the market segment more neutral as possible, so as to avoid the stagnation of the industry.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από funewchie:

Second, those stage themes have to be used, because those are all different elements. If you have an underwater ruins level, it's inevitably going to be compared to Aquatic Ruins or Hydrocity.

I partially agree, but that elements could be included on a new level (even if this level is similar to another, like Emerald Hill). But not reusing the same zone.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από funewchie:

Third, we have no idea how long the game will be or how tough it will be.

I said it before: Twelve stages with a lenght similar to Sonic 2 each one. Eight of that are recycled.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από funewchie:

Fourth, if it doesn't actually have an ice level, then thank goodness! Who actually liked Ice Cap zone (besides for its atmosphere and music)?

Me. It had the best level design for the spin dash (remember that platforms).

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από funewchie:

Fifth... "hated Sonic Forces"? What on earth are you talking about?
That game hasn't even come out yet, and is well talked about, even now. It hasn't succeeded or failed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeF3UTkCoxY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGu3Xe1uUUg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RHdrmZsNs0
And for Sonic Forces:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8ASNwGxRqg
(Sorry for putting the link of a video-reaction, but the original one seems to be deleted)

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από funewchie:

And what is Metacritic?
To be honest, I haven't listened to gaming critics since before G4 stole TechTv from us. The so-called "reviewers" and "critics" basically say that any game that isn't Gears of War or Bioshock is garbage.
I say to those critics: I'll play the games and make my own judgements, thank you very much.

Metacritic is nowadays the main reference for most of gaming community on rating videogames (since it makes an average of the notes issued by any videogame website). It has more influence on the industry than somebody can imagine (at least for no-casual games).
And you have reason on the second paragraph: No CoD (or any FPS fish), no glory for critics.

PD: Look at the first reviews of the game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0vvLWTYutc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5etFKfLNGvY

[funewchie]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από 377A hero:

This may be an unpopular opinion, but i think that the nostalgia factor (and other kinds of fanservice) should disappear from the gaming industry. As a detail is not bad, but not as a entire game.
Developers should be always in the market segment more neutral as possible, so as to avoid the stagnation of the industry.

So, what about gamers that are over 30 years old? Should they just lay down and die, then?
Should they be told "You had your time in the sun, now go away - the current generation is here."?

And what's wrong with the old ways? Many a classic game had that appeal and charm, which nowadays can often be lost in the war for state-of-the-art CGI realism.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από 377A hero:

I partially agree, but that elements could be included on a new level (even if this level is similar to another, like Emerald Hill). But not reusing the same zone.

I would argue on this, but honestly, I haven't been keeping up with news on the zones for this game. I sincerely doubt that they're copying & pasting the stages from Sonic Generations, but I haven't yet seen what they are using.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από 377A hero:

I said it before: Twelve stages with a lenght similar to Sonic 2 each one. Eight of that are recycled.

I repeat: The game is not yet released, we don't know everything about it.

But even if the stages are Sonic 2 length... what about it?
Sonic 2 had good stages, and most were a decent length. Even at that, stage length does not decide how good a game is.

After all, Super Mario Bros 3 had ridiculously short stages (compared to later games), but it's still viewed as one of that series best entries. The stages were short, but they made them count.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από 377A hero:

Me. It had the best level design for the spin dash (remember that platforms).

All I remember about Ice Cap is the slow boss fight, and that horrible looping vertical section.
And of course, ice physics are seldom ever fun, in any platforming series.

To quote the song from Brawl in The Family: "It's beginning to look like an Ice World. Oh boy, here we go... It's the platformers' greatest foe, moving around is slow. Because of all the irritating snow! Yes, it's clear we're in the token ice world. Warm yourself with rage! For instead of you fighting through, your controls are fighting YOU! Through the whole. darn. stage!"

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από 377A hero:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeF3UTkCoxY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGu3Xe1uUUg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RHdrmZsNs0
And for Sonic Forces:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8ASNwGxRqg
(Sorry for putting the link of a video-reaction, but the original one seems to be deleted)

Don't be sorry, I kinda liked that last guy's reaction to the original video.

And he's right - far too many people overreact to games that haven't even been released yet.
And way too many people go back to Sonic 06, who haven't even played the game. (Or Rise of Lyric, for that matter. (Well, the patched version, anyways))
His reaction video was actually quite refreshing. It's nice to see someone put the Sonic haters in their place for once (besides Sonic himself, that is, as he has called out the haters himself).

The rest of the videos... I'll be honest, I fail to see your point.

I actually despise the Call of Duty series. (although, to be fair, it's more that I dislike it's fanboys. (The regular, normal CoD fans are okay in my book. I just hate the obsessed fanatics (you know the type).)

I played CoD: Modern Warfare 2 one time, got through several missions, and frankly, was not impressed. The game felt kinda boring to me (Most of the time, I had no idea what I was supposed to be doing, or where to shoot, or what the goals was.)
I eventually gave up on it and switched to playing Mass Effect 2.

We know even less about Metroid Prime 4 than we do about Sonic Forces.
(I just hope they make Prime 4 less linear than before. In Prime 3, it felt like the game was holding my hand, making me go in a straight line, with no deviation allowed. Come on, Nintendo, let me explore and have some fun.
Save the linear storytelling for a Fusion sequel.)

And why are you showing me a Bubsy game? Sounds like that in of itself is a nostalgia game. (Perhaps not a bad thing, though. I played the original Bubsy, though it wasn't one of my favorites. Still, it wasn't bad.)

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από 377A hero:

Metacritic is nowadays the main reference for most of gaming community on rating videogames (since it makes an average of the notes issued by any videogame website). It has more influence on the industry than somebody can imagine (at least for no-casual games).
And you have reason on the second paragraph: No CoD (or any FPS fish), no glory for critics.

PD: Look at the first reviews of the game.

No thanks, I'll wait until I actually play Sonic Mania before I judge it.
I don't trust critics, especially regarding Sonic games.

So many of them seem to be obsessed with FPS games, or a game having the most advanced graphics, that anything that doesn't is automatically judged as garbage.
I'm sure they spit on games like Freedom Planet, despite it being a surprisingly good game.

Or they're the types who whine "Nintendo is past it's prime and behind the times. They should just give up. And it's fans should grow up and play real games."
<sarcasm>...Yeah, I'm sure Sony and Microsoft don't pay them to say that. </sarcasm>

Anyways, I'm looking forward to Sonic Forces. (I just hope my PC can handle it when it does come out...)

[468528456]

http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-4/sonic-mania

Clearly was not a failure. It scored higher than Sonic Generations and Sonic Colors.

[Intonarumori (#safeTF2)]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από funewchie:

So, what about gamers that are over 30 years old? Should they just lay down and die, then?
Should they be told "You had your time in the sun, now go away - the current generation is here."?

And what's wrong with the old ways? Many a classic game had that appeal and charm, which nowadays can often be lost in the war for state-of-the-art CGI realism.

I´m not against that generation at all. Also, although I´m from the second half of the 90s, I played and enjoyed even Atari 2600 games, and I´m a little tired of CGI realism in videogames and movies.
I wanted to say that the abuse of the nostalgia factor can gnaw all the entertainment industry in the long term, mainly due to the lack of new ideas.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από funewchie:

I repeat: The game is not yet released, we don't know everything about it.

But even if the stages are Sonic 2 length... what about it?
Sonic 2 had good stages, and most were a decent length. Even at that, stage length does not decide how good a game is.

After all, Super Mario Bros 3 had ridiculously short stages (compared to later games), but it's still viewed as one of that series best entries. The stages were short, but they made them count.

I said before: The game was filtered some days ago.
What I´m complaining is not the lenght of the stages (SMB3 is my personal favorite Mario in 2D), but the rehashed ones.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από funewchie:

Don't be sorry, I kinda liked that last guy's reaction to the original video.

And he's right - far too many people overreact to games that haven't even been released yet.
And way too many people go back to Sonic 06, who haven't even played the game. (Or Rise of Lyric, for that matter. (Well, the patched version, anyways))
His reaction video was actually quite refreshing. It's nice to see someone put the Sonic haters in their place for once (besides Sonic himself, that is, as he has called out the haters himself).

The rest of the videos... I'll be honest, I fail to see your point.

I actually despise the Call of Duty series. (although, to be fair, it's more that I dislike it's fanboys. (The regular, normal CoD fans are okay in my book. I just hate the obsessed fanatics (you know the type).)

I played CoD: Modern Warfare 2 one time, got through several missions, and frankly, was not impressed. The game felt kinda boring to me (Most of the time, I had no idea what I was supposed to be doing, or where to shoot, or what the goals was.)
I eventually gave up on it and switched to playing Mass Effect 2.

We know even less about Metroid Prime 4 than we do about Sonic Forces.
(I just hope they make Prime 4 less linear than before. In Prime 3, it felt like the game was holding my hand, making me go in a straight line, with no deviation allowed. Come on, Nintendo, let me explore and have some fun.
Save the linear storytelling for a Fusion sequel.)

And why are you showing me a Bubsy game? Sounds like that in of itself is a nostalgia game. (Perhaps not a bad thing, though. I played the original Bubsy, though it wasn't one of my favorites. Still, it wasn't bad.)

I was sorry because I consider video-reactions like stealing the original content... but as I said before, I couldn´t find the original video.
I put that trailers because the amount of dislikes they had (even Bubsy has had a bad reception), as a sample of hating before release.
Note: The first "reviews" that I showed were posted before the big media sites reviewed the game.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από 468528456:

http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-4/sonic-mania

Clearly was not a failure. It scored higher than Sonic Generations and Sonic Colors.

The game has had good luck with the media (despite a 60/100 from a certain site), and also the community liked it in general.
It may have had a critical and public success, but it can still fail on sales (and that is the factor which really matters to SEGA). Great games like Earthbound, Shenmue or Beyond Good & Evil sold very little.
Also, I found funny that IGN gave Sonic Mania an 87/100, despite "Sonic was never good". Logic is dead.