Pagan Kings - Stay Pagan

[dmwyvern]

Just began playing ToB and am enjoying it immensely. I have a question about the Allegiance system:

https://www.totalwar.com/blog/thrones-of-britannia-allegiance-update-beta

In the above article it is stated that the Pagan Kings get reduced bonuses and larger penalties if they decide to Stay Pagan when prompted about religion. Does that mean there is no upside to staying pagan permanently, as a faction?

[Mile pro Libertate]

Imo, yes, there reallly is no point to staying pagan permanently. As Dyflin, I converted as soon as the choice came up, so I don't know how it goes for people who don't; but I can't really see why you would want to stay pagan, aside from some rp, or personal challenge.

Your retainers will take a hit to loyalty and your armies will also take hits when you initially convert, so it would seem to make more sense to do this early game when your holdings aren't as vast, and you don't have as many retainers to manage. After the conversion maluses go away, you may get Christian specific missions that can give nice perks, and everything just goes on as normal regardless.

Historically, it makes sense, because it was a Christian world in 10th century Britain. Even if many people retained pagan beliefs, they mixed them with those of the Church, and were not hostile to the Church as an institution. Any significant leaders were, if not truly converted, at least nominally Christian and patrons of the Church, because that conferred a ton of social and pragmatic advantages. We see good examples of all this happening in Viking York and in East Anglia.

[dmwyvern]

Originally posted by Mile pro Libertate:

Imo, yes, there reallly is no point to staying pagan permanently. As Dyflin, I converted as soon as the choice came up, so I don't know how it goes for people who don't; but I can't really see why you would want to stay pagan, aside from some rp, or personal challenge.

Your retainers will take a hit to loyalty and your armies will also take hits when you initially convert, so it would seem to make more sense to do this early game when your holdings aren't as vast, and you don't have as many retainers to manage. After the conversion maluses go away, you may get Christian specific missions that can give nice perks, and everything just goes on as normal regardless.

Historically, it makes sense, because it was a Christian world in 10th century Britain. Even if many people retained pagan beliefs, they mixed them with those of the Church, and were not hostile to the Church as an institution. Any significant leaders were, if not truly converted, at least nominally Christian and patrons of the Church, because that conferred a ton of social and pragmatic advantages. We see good examples of all this happening in Viking York and in East Anglia.

Great! Thanks for that response, I would have preferred that the developers offered some incentives for players that wish their kingdoms to remain pagan but c'est la vie. As you wrote, I guess they are trying to be true to the winds of history RE the march of Christianity across the isles.

[Mile pro Libertate]

Originally posted by grimjack:

Originally posted by Mile pro Libertate:

Imo, yes, there reallly is no point to staying pagan permanently. As Dyflin, I converted as soon as the choice came up, so I don't know how it goes for people who don't; but I can't really see why you would want to stay pagan, aside from some rp, or personal challenge.

Your retainers will take a hit to loyalty and your armies will also take hits when you initially convert, so it would seem to make more sense to do this early game when your holdings aren't as vast, and you don't have as many retainers to manage. After the conversion maluses go away, you may get Christian specific missions that can give nice perks, and everything just goes on as normal regardless.

Historically, it makes sense, because it was a Christian world in 10th century Britain. Even if many people retained pagan beliefs, they mixed them with those of the Church, and were not hostile to the Church as an institution. Any significant leaders were, if not truly converted, at least nominally Christian and patrons of the Church, because that conferred a ton of social and pragmatic advantages. We see good examples of all this happening in Viking York and in East Anglia.

Great! Thanks for that response, I would have preferred that the developers offered some incentives for players that wish their kingdoms to remain pagan but c'est la vie. As you wrote, I guess they are trying to be true to the winds of history RE the march of Christianity across the isles.

Yes, when the game was first released there was no Pagan Kings mechanic at all, everyone was just Christian.

I agree that they could have fleshed out being a pagan king a little more.

Marriage to another faction's Christian princess, for example, could have come with some issues that the player would've had to weigh. Another would be administration: without the benefit of Church scribes and diocese authorities willingly helping the king, tax collection and decrees could take maluses.

That's the thing though: there are a bunch more maluses that they could have implemented for being a pagan king, and little on the park side of things, so it might have got really annoying to start off as a pagan king the more fleshed out it was.

I think a cool perk though could've been with the off-map factions. Maybe a pagan king would have easier access to experienced Viking units in the roster, to simulate stronger ties with pagan chieftains and warleaders back in Norway and Denmark?

I don't know...maybe something for a modder to consider :)

[wild_man]

I stayed pagan throughout and didn't have any problems - just kept getting asked if I would convert or not