Viking roster? Shieldmaidens?

[ximslammin]

Has that been shown yet? What will the Viking roster look like?

[Metadragon]

Aedelric の投稿を引用：

I hope the game does have Uhtred of Bebbanburg, just so I can read the objections of a few salty people. :)

As for achaeology and historical accounts, that will all take second place to a fun game.

You were comparing dragons and trolls to woman warriors, a dumb comment deserved a dumb reply. I think we can both agree it is a silly comparison and has little weight on the topic.

Sure I could download a mod just like you but I am not the one that cares, I honestly have no preferences on the matter. Not sure why you do either, it can not be historical accuracy that bothers you as you would never play a Total War game if that was the case.

So you are a troll then. Thats all you needed to say. bye felicia.

[B.Smith]

Aedelric の投稿を引用：

I hope the game does have Uhtred of Bebbanburg, just so I can read the objections of a few salty people. :)

As for achaeology and historical accounts, that will all take second place to a fun game.

You were comparing dragons and trolls to woman warriors, a dumb comment deserved a dumb reply. I think we can both agree it is a silly comparison and has little weight on the topic.

Sure I could download a mod just like you but I am not the one that cares, I honestly have no preferences on the matter. Not sure why you do either, it can not be historical accuracy that bothers you as you would never play a Total War game if that was the case.

At least Uthred is based on a real person all be it not in this time frame, if I remember it right the real uthred was called uthred the bold and lived in the time of Ethelred the unready and the Swyn/Cnut invasion. Late 900's early 1000's. I also believe he was Aulderman/Earl of Northumbria.

[acur1231]

stevebullpasture の投稿を引用：

Hatchetforce の投稿を引用：

The best estimations of researchers and experts, persons far more knowledgeable and experienced than you and I, those such as Charlotte Hedenstierna-Jonson of Stockholm University who led the study, is that they existed. Not in mass numbers. Not even, as I stated, 5%. But they existed. These are not armchair reasonings but rather the findings of the best people in their field. Those that do not state openly and with sureity this was the case also remark that with the evidence you cannot say no.

The grave mentioned earlier has been assailed by persons on this board with no more knowledge than a chewing gum wrapper. No one just assumed it was a warriors grave. That deduction by specialists came after painstaking investigation. This is not the first female Norse warrior grave, merely the first high ranking one. And they know she was high ranking due to the items buried with her such as the two horses as well as other artifacts.

Other literary and historical sources, and not just the sagas as I recounted in an instance already also provide persuasive information. Even Jesch references Saxo knowing full well he is a reliable source. We also know that a Byzantine account of a 971 battle in Bulgaria where the Varangians as the Eastern European Vikings were sometimes known suffered a rare defeat mentions finding armed women amongst the dead. And in the fight between Sigurd Hring, king of Sweden and the Geats of Västergötland, and his uncle Harald Wartooth, King of Denmark and the Geats of Östergötland at the legendary battle of Brávellir, where it's reported that on the side of the Danes, many of the warriors were skjaldmö - shieldmaidens.

And most researchers agree the most likely cause for the disappearance of these skjaldmö was the Christianization of Scanadanavia and Northern lands.

Again, there's not a single North American Indian tribe that has a female warrior culture. The west did not write these women out of history, they did not exist because it makes no evolutionary sense. This is modern egalitarian views applied to history. Men are far better than women at being men, and women are far better at being women than men. The modern progressive propaganda wheel is strong here, blame all western ideas etc.

You seem to not understand that a women is a person as well. And they fight better than younger children, who were also sometimes used in defense. If they can carry arms, they would have to fight, given the violence of the era. Do you think some slight physical differences will make a huge difference to someone holding a shield up? It may be harder, but not impossible for them to do so, and better than just sitting at home waiting to be burnt. All animals fight for self preservation, that is one of the strongest evolutionary traits, and if several women wanted to join a viking raiding force, I highly doubt they would be turned away, especially since by this time viking raids would be suffering extremely high losses.

[Metadragon]

B.Smith の投稿を引用：

all be it

Its albeit. one word. Sorry this is one of my pet peeves.

[Mile pro Libertate]

Da Bouncer の投稿を引用：

Put them in the game because it would be cool and hasn't been proved historically inaccurate. Live and let live.

That's another point of disagreement underlying all of this though.

I for one don't think the idea of slaughtering women is cool. Killing anyone, period, is lamentable. But sometimes there is simply nothing else to be done if you have to defend your society.

But why people fetishize the idea of women taking part in a melee, getting arms and legs lopped off, is beyond me.

[yonderer]

Da Bouncer の投稿を引用：

Jonnydodger の投稿を引用：

But there’s more evidence for them not existing than the other way around.

Like what?

I already went over this above. Only boys learned glima. This is not conjecture, its fact. People are fond of saying there are shieldmaidens in the sagas without ever actually bothering to read them. The shieldmaidens that are actually mentioned such as Brynhildr Buðladóttir had to pretend to be a man to even get to fight. The sagas didnt even come close to implying that women were warriors or went on raids. There is no mention of women in vahalla or folkvangr, the halls of the dead. There is no mention of women warriors in the anglo saxon chronicles, in fact it explicitly describes them as male. The evidence isn't just overwhelmingly against it, anyone who says Norse women were fighters is either explicity lying or ignorant.

[yonderer]

Eowyn in Lord of The Rings was a nod to Brynhildr Buðladóttir by the way.

[Metadragon]

yonderer の投稿を引用：

Eowyn in Lord of The Rings was a nod to Brynhildr Buðladóttir by the way.

The Rohirrim in general were supposed to be Anglo-Saxons with a much stronger horsemanship culture (as opposed to sailing perhaps) and Tolkien studied their language and the only words describing color that survived in the old anglo language were the colors of horses apparently.

[Jimmy Rustler]

Mile pro Libertate の投稿を引用：

Da Bouncer の投稿を引用：

Put them in the game because it would be cool and hasn't been proved historically inaccurate. Live and let live.

That's another point of disagreement underlying all of this though.

I for one don't think the idea of slaughtering women is cool. Killing anyone, period, is lamentable. But sometimes there is simply nothing else to be done if you have to defend your society.

But why people fetishize the idea of women taking part in a melee, getting arms and legs lopped off, is beyond me.

Soyboys. No real man, from any human culture, no matter how barbaric, would ever countenance allowing women to go to open war while he still drew breath.

Hopefully they won't reproduce, and we can reverse the damage they've done.

[Mile pro Libertate]

yonderer の投稿を引用：

Da Bouncer の投稿を引用：

Like what?

I already went over this above. Only boys learned glima. This is not conjecture, its fact. People are fond of saying there are shieldmaidens in the sagas without ever actually bothering to read them. The shieldmaidens that are actually mentioned such as Brynhildr Buðladóttir had to pretend to be a man to even get to fight. The sagas didnt even come close to implying that women were warriors or went on raids. There is no mention of women in vahalla or folkvangr, the halls of the dead. There is no mention of women warriors in the anglo saxon chronicles, in fact it explicitly describes them as male. The evidence isn't just overwhelmingly against it, anyone who says Norse women were fighters is either explicity lying or ignorant.

^
I'd add that we also have to consider where women are attested with Norse warriors in hostile situations it is with colonist groups, or where enemies are attacking homes. But yeah, no indications from the folklore or archaeology that they were part of the warrior institution or went raiding.

And people should also keep in mind that there are always going to be tales of isolated instances where a heroine takes on the warrior role, or finds herself caught up in war, from Mulan to Molly Pitcher.

Trying to extrapolate from such tales "evidence" for a larger cultural feature of women warriors misses the main point of the tale: that the character is significant because she is so atypical. Such women serve as culture bearers and to impart lessons to the audience, the tales' authors aren't saying, "oh yeah, this is a document about how things usually played out in our society regards women."

As I said in an earlier post, it would be like 1,000 or more years from now people looking at the tale of Molly Pitcher, and then saying this was historical evidence for women being in the line regiments or artillery batteries of the 18th century.

Yes, the accounts of Pitcher are based on an actual, historic incident.

Yes, she is used in subsequent folklore and narratives to illustrate various virtues of her culture and of being a woman in that culture (the fact that she mans the cannon after her husband falls from enemy fire is especially significant).

No, she does not "prove" that women were directly engaged in the warrior institutions of the society, or featured in 18th century warfare as combatants.

But getting back to the Viking Age, there is also the matter of the chronicles from Ireland, which are fairly extensive for the period and describe many raids and battles with and against the Norse and Hiberno-Norse.

The Irish chronicles do not mention women fighting in Norse forces, but they do make mention of women being enslaved from Norse towns in the aftermath of a battle where their fighting men have been killed or routed.

A very prominent example is the Battle of Sulcoit in 968, where the Irish under Mahon and Brian mac Cennetieg (future The Boru) defeated Ivar of Limerick and his Norse force, and the subsequent sack of the Norse colony of Limerick after Ivar's force was routed in the field.

There are three main chronicles for the events: Annals of Ulster, the Annals of Innisfallen, and The War of the Irish Against the Foreigners.

None of the chronicles say that there were any women in Ivar's force, despite it being quite large for the period (c. 1,000 Norse warriors).

The chronicles give other details that aren't really necessary for a historical chronicle, such as what weapons were used, but no mention of women fighters.

Interestingly, one of the details pertains to another controversial aspect of Norse: cavalry. It is stated that Ivar's best men rode horses in battle and went against the Irish light horse.

I find it interesting, because people almost universally seem to agree that the Norse didn't utilize cavalry, but meanwhile there is all of this debate about "shieldmaidens." The Irish accounts of the battle say clearly that there were Norse cavalry, and no mention of any women warriors, but the former remains something "shrouded in mystery" and the later is something increasingly said to be "historically supported."

Also, the Irish accounts are contemperaneous or very near contemperaneous, while the tales supposedly attesting shieldmaidens are written many years after the Viking Age.

After routing Ivar and his warriors, the Irish move on Limerick and sack it, taking anything valuable that wasn't nailed down, and burning everything else.

It is explicit in the chronicles that any men in Limerick were subsequently killed, and all the women and children taken as slaves.

What is interesting about this, is that the Irish force was reported as only around 300 men strong, and Limerick was a very large, thriving Norse town. Along with Dublin, it was one of the most significant Norse settlements in Ireland, arguably even more significant than Dublin.

So it further begs the question as to where all the "shieldmaidens" were at, because a small Irish force just waltzes into one of the largest and most developed settlements in Ireland, loots it thoroughly, torches the place, and enslaves all the women and kids.

There is no epic battle with the Irish having to fight their way in, and there is no mention of Irish dead from any fighting in Limerick. After Ivar's force was routed and scattered at Sulcoit, Limerick was apparently left completely vulnerable, and thus utterly violated in every way possible at the Irishmen's leisure.

[Berserk Belta]

Aedelric の投稿を引用：

Does it matter if Shieldmaidens are real or if women did or did not participate in battles in ancient history? This is a Toal War game, they are not known for being very realistic or an accurate representation of history.

Shieldmaidens were mentioned in sagas and that litterally is enough to have them added. Sure they could be a fun unit, though failing that they could make an interesting follower under character details instead.

I agree with the point you make here, Aedelric. Some license is often taken, and if it gets a bit too much for the player that's what mods are for.

What I do take issue with is people claiming it's a "known fact" that Viking ranks swelled with female warriors, because it isn't. More to the point the apparently unshakeable belief that one is the voice of objectivity and reason without the "fact" you (not YOU you) are asserting being provable, and just sort of snorting derisively or throwing accusations when it's rightly challenged - as if that's the magic password that lets you establish facts without evidence or rational discussion. That's before we examine the numerous questions the proposed assumption raises if one has even cursory acquaintance with the available history, we're supposed to go ahead and shortwire that bit, simply assume because wouldn't it be nice and appropriate for it to be fact.

There's a place for license in Total War games, to an extent. The other thing is quite simply madness, it's sad to see, and it's good to see people saying "wait, fact... is that actually true?"

It almost makes you despair a little less for humanity, because asking that when something begs the question seems to be a rare skill these days.


PS: The whole argument, Mike, about people in the modern military or anatomy of male vs female seems like a tangent, a red herring. Not a hill to die on in this discussion imo. Ymmv I guess.

[Jonnydodger]

Da Bouncer の投稿を引用：

It would be interesting to have a unit that is vastly different, the roster will likely need it.

The Danelaw roster will have Viking and Anglo-Saxon units.

[Berserk Belta]

Da Bouncer の投稿を引用：

Who are you talking to?

Was responding on crappy smartphone and post I was responding to appeared to be the newest -edited in the quote now. Post could be clearer, but there's a limit to how much editing I can stand to do with a touchscreen.

[Mile pro Libertate]

Da Bouncer の投稿を引用：

Uhtred son of Uhtred の投稿を引用：

Was responding on crappy smartphone and post I was responding to appeared to be the newest -edited in the quote now. Post could be clearer, but there's a limit to how much editing I can stand to do with a touchscreen.

I just wasn't sure who had talked about shieldmaidens being a fact. I can see you've edited that now.

It's pretty hard to take people like Mike Oxlong and Mile pro libertate seriously as far as the shieldmaiden issue is concerned when their views on modern women are so clearly sexist.

Like I said earlier, unless you're running for congress or paliament or trying to get the state to give you money, castigating doesn't establish anything.

All you have said in a roundabout way, is "I'm going to ignore everything these guys say," because you don't know how to argue against any of it.

Form an argument, defend it.

Quipping "sagas" over and over and "sexist" over and over isn't an argument.

[Jonnydodger]

Da Bouncer の投稿を引用：

Uhtred son of Uhtred の投稿を引用：

Was responding on crappy smartphone and post I was responding to appeared to be the newest -edited in the quote now. Post could be clearer, but there's a limit to how much editing I can stand to do with a touchscreen.

I just wasn't sure who had talked about shieldmaidens being a fact. I can see you've edited that now.

It's pretty hard to take people like Mike Oxlong and Mile pro libertate seriously as far as the shieldmaiden issue is concerned when their views on modern women are so clearly sexist.

Nice cop out.