Total War Game Set in Pre-Colonisation America?

[OpenPlanPrison]

Would anybody else like to see a total war game in which you play as Mesoamerican and Native American tribes? In the north, you could battle the Viking colonisers of Newfoundland, and in the Caribbean, you could battle the forces of, and possibly even personally kill Christopher Columbus. Though you'd spend most of the game against your fellow natives, in the end you could fend off the Spanish, French and British forces and end European colonisation of the Americas forever!

[Haddon]

We don't have anywhere near enough information about North American Indians (except Aztecs) to make a TW game about this. Their tribal alliances shifted constantly, their geographic control changed regularly, most of them (far as we can tell) didn't have any systematic warfare (skirmishes and raids).

And like the Indians would have had ANY chance against the Spanish. Mostly neolithic technology with the tiniest bit of metallurgy vs guns and plate armor and cavalry, with ~90% of their population completely wiped out by disease over the course of the 16th century. Also, European colonization of the New World is the best thing that has ever happened to the New World. Sure, they did some horrible things, but they also brought reading and writing and math and science and technology thousands of years ahead of the New World with them; things that almost no groups in the New World had (and none of them had science or advanced technology).

[Spud]

The tech tree could go something like this...
Sticks and stones - flaked stones wedged in sticks and used as hatchets - bendy sticks with string shooting straight pointy sticks with feathers stuck on.

End game for buildings progression could involve upgrading small teepee to slightly larger teepee and totem pole for cultural bonus.

[Haddon]

Originally posted by Murdoch:

The tech tree could go something like this...
Sticks and stones - bendy sticks with string shooting straight pointy sticks with feathers stuck on - flaked stones wedged in sticks and used as hatchets.

End game for buildings progression could involve upgrading small teepee to slightly larger teepee.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wJBhWKSNCg

Oh sure, just leave out wigwams. Wigwams>teepees.

[Spud]

Originally posted by Haddon:

Originally posted by Murdoch:

The tech tree could go something like this...
Sticks and stones - bendy sticks with string shooting straight pointy sticks with feathers stuck on - flaked stones wedged in sticks and used as hatchets.

End game for buildings progression could involve upgrading small teepee to slightly larger teepee.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wJBhWKSNCg

Oh sure, just leave out wigwams. Wigwams>teepees.

lol, OK small teepee - slightly larger teepee - wigwam for the win

[Len's]

ha yeah very easy to laught at them because they dont have canon etc but whitout them there a big chance colonisation will have not worked at all whitout autochtone medecine and food .dunno why you put america in one spot , Aztec , do i need to recall you that majority of 1812 war vs USA are mostly won by first nation warrior againts your advance technology soldier

[Haddon]

Originally posted by Peanuttoaster:

ha yeah very easy to laught at them because they dont have canon etc but whitout them there a big chance colonisation will have not worked at all whitout autochtone medecine and food .dunno why you put america in one spot , Aztec , do i need to recall you that majority of 1812 war vs USA are mostly won by first nation warrior againts your advance technology soldier

Umm what? How would colonization not have worked without them? It probably would have taken longer without having natives to work the fields and such, but it still would have worked just fine, just would've needed more slaves and indentured servants. What does the War of 1812 have to do with pre-colonial Americans? There were Indians fighting in that war (and others), but they were using European/American technology. They weren't running around shooting bows and throwing tomahawks, they were using guns and horses, both European imports.

[Spud]

Nobody is laughing at them, but the reality is they weren't very technologically advanced, and technological advancements play an important role in the progression of a TW campaign and the development of a faction, not only advancement either, but also variety and the way that impacts upon strategic and tactical decision making.

They weren't stupid people, in fact they had a level of understanding when it comes to man inhabiting the natural world that we have either lost or never attained ourselves, but they literally fought with sticks and stones and combinations of them and built only small structures out of wood and animal hides, or in some cases larger structures from stone, and that is not going to be much fun for a TW game.

[Haddon]

Originally posted by Murdoch:

They weren't stupid people, in fact they had a level of understanding when it comes to man inhabiting the natural world that we have either lost or never attained ourselves, but they literally fought with sticks and stones and combinations of them, and that is not going to be much fun for a TW game.

They actually weren't any better with nature than any other pre-civilized societies. Like the American Great Plains? Yeah, didn't used to be great plains, they were a mix of plains and forest, and deforestation for agricultural land contibuted significantly to the creation of the Great Plains (and drove animals like black and brown bears and mule deer and elk into areas they didn't naturally inhabit). They slashed and burned, they hunted some species to extinction, and the ones that had civilization (like Cahokia and the Aztecs) weren't any better than early Mesopotamians. This whole "Oh, they were so in touch with nature" is just The Noble Savage cultural imaginaries we have placed on them. The Romans did the same with the pre-Romanized Gauls, the Chinese thought the same about the Turko-Mongolic peoples. Hell, the earliest "novel" in history, Gilgamesh, has the same narrative about the people Enkidu comes from; non-civilized people living more "in touch" with nature.

Pre-civilized societies live more in "harmony" with their environment because they don't have the massive population centers of civilized societies, but almost all of them are just as bad as early civilizations once they GET civilization.

[Spud]

The fact remains, pre colonization Americas as a Total War game with stick and stone combat based battles, even if it had a great new engine and functional AI, would be even more dire than ToB.

[mercurydawn]

Peanut warrior is talking about the myth of Canadian victories during the war of 1812. The overwhelming bulk of the victories actually came from a Swiss mercenary unit that had service in South Africa prior, and lead every campaign.... the metis, first Nation and loyalists largely fought BEHIND them in the offensives.

I was in Montreal a little over a decade ago, in the Centaur theater, sat though some very ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ one man plays talking about the heroics of Canadian history. Was forced to do some research on it. Canadians and Americans both did badly in the war, hard to judge which side was more incompetent, save for Jackson in New Orleans. British initially won in DC, but then the Holy Trinity of God Almighty defeated the British as soon as they started burning.... three tornadoes, extremely rare for DC to get a tornado, launched a attack.

In Canada proper, after alot of confusion on both sides, US forces eventually got to the capital of Yorktown, but the British blew up the arsenal, which was bricked, largely underground, and the force of the explosion unexpectedly turned the entrance of the fort into the workd's biggest canon, and American forces killing the Canadian army off near by took the bulk of that force.

The Americans then massacred the traitors/loyalists, and then this pissed the loyalists/traitors living in nearby places to enlist..... and those numbnuts marched BEHIND the Swiss from that point on, until the Swiss were defeated in New York.... then the Swiss turned around, and the brave Canadians lead the way back into Canada.

Canada/British were defeated on all three fronts. On the new York frobt by sheer incompetence. In New Orleans better generalship. In Washington/Maryland, by the power of Baby Jesus.

Canada then went on to have a miserable civil war in the 1830s. Everyone lost because everyone was a natural born loser in that war.

[Mile pro Libertate]

Originally posted by Kievan Rus:

Would anybody else like to see a total war game in which you play as Mesoamerican and Native American tribes? In the north, you could battle the Viking colonisers of Newfoundland, and in the Caribbean, you could battle the forces of, and possibly even personally kill Christopher Columbus. Though you'd spend most of the game against your fellow natives, in the end you could fend off the Spanish, French and British forces and end European colonisation of the Americas forever!

Check out "Medieval 2: Kingdoms" on Steam, also "Empire Total War: The Warpath Campaign."

[OpenPlanPrison]

I would generally just love them to make an Empire game that was any good. Having to fight over colonies in the Americas, Africa and Asia could have been so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ awesome, but the actual game sucked ♥♥♥♥ so it didn't really work.

[mercurydawn]

I was thinking about buying that game (Empires) on steam recently, had it on CD long ago. Nothing new dlc wise was released, and so decided not to.

Good concept, just.... I don't want to play it.

[Len's]

Originally posted by mercurydawn:

Peanut warrior is talking about the myth of Canadian victories during the war of 1812. The overwhelming bulk of the victories actually came from a Swiss mercenary unit that had service in South Africa prior, and lead every campaign.... the metis, first Nation and loyalists largely fought BEHIND them in the offensives.

I was in Montreal a little over a decade ago, in the Centaur theater, sat though some very ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ one man plays talking about the heroics of Canadian history. Was forced to do some research on it. Canadians and Americans both did badly in the war, hard to judge which side was more incompetent, save for Jackson in New Orleans. British initially won in DC, but then the Holy Trinity of God Almighty defeated the British as soon as they started burning.... three tornadoes, extremely rare for DC to get a tornado, launched a attack.

In Canada proper, after alot of confusion on both sides, US forces eventually got to the capital of Yorktown, but the British blew up the arsenal, which was bricked, largely underground, and the force of the explosion unexpectedly turned the entrance of the fort into the workd's biggest canon, and American forces killing the Canadian army off near by took the bulk of that force.

The Americans then massacred the traitors/loyalists, and then this pissed the loyalists/traitors living in nearby places to enlist..... and those numbnuts marched BEHIND the Swiss from that point on, until the Swiss were defeated in New York.... then the Swiss turned around, and the brave Canadians lead the way back into Canada.

Canada/British were defeated on all three fronts. On the new York frobt by sheer incompetence. In New Orleans better generalship. In Washington/Maryland, by the power of Baby Jesus.

Canada then went on to have a miserable civil war in the 1830s. Everyone lost because everyone was a natural born loser in that war.

omg the 1812 war is a myth now ,no wonder why they dont teach that in usa school . ha yeah theye dont teach defeat , Canada was not defeated , wtf you talking aobut , Canada leave New york due to the treaty deal .you should have stay longer than a litle trip in Montreal or Ontario .

For the Americans, the outcome was more ambiguous. Since the issues of impressment and maritime rights were not resolved in the peace treaty, the war could be considered a failure; however, the Americans had some spectacular victories at sea, which were indicators of the future potential of American power. The war was certainly a failure for the "War Hawks," who coveted the annexation of Canada — the war proved that this was not militarily feasible. The conclusions that the war was a "second war of independence" or a war of honour and respect are less easy to judge.

[StrangeAK47]

Originally posted by Mile pro Libertate:

"Empire Total War: The Warpath Campaign."

this^