Seriously Bioware!?

[cdrive1]

I loved the idea they were TRYING to make with the 'Open Palm and Closed Fist' philosophies but by the end, it ends up BECOMING strict good and strict evil...I like the game itself *In spite of its flaws* but let's get some brainstorming going here....On what we'd want if Bioware cared enough to make a Jade Empire 2.

I'll start: Making there be TWO meters, one being the aforementioned Philosophies, the other being your traditional Scale of Good and Evil.

[cdrive1]

Originally posted by stcaFylnO:

I agree man.

I think there are a few issues:

1) Barry Dennen's portayal of Sun Li is amazing. Basically he had to play it neutral enough to be the opponent for OP and CF players. So, he doesn't yell, just speaks softly. Some of the sarcastic and insidious dialouge are subtle enough to go either way, while later, some of course are obvious.

2) Your idea of OP/CF and G/E meters is the best idea I've heard for future products. In JE, the writers mistakenly crossed lines, where evil and CF are interchangable, which leads to confusion. What really is CF, what really is evil in their eyes? It needs separated. Similarly, selfish greed just dosn't jive with the altruistic belief in strength. Sure, money is power, but some dialogue choices for the player swing wildly; one moment they want us to be greedy, another time greedy is neutral, while belief in strength in lieu of monetary gain is the desired choice.

3) Oops, forgot, the thugish/insolent dialouge is supposed to be CF, but then at other times, it is too much and squashes NPCs. I had a bit of reloading, just trying to find the right balance of CF-ness.

Note: Prince Kin (DH) spills more inside information toward the end, during a CF path. But even more telling, is Barry Dennen's laugh at the end of neutral playthoughs. I only play this game every few years and forget so much, but when I saw the neutral end today, I couldn't believe it... one laughter is worth a million words?

If you mean the laugh Sun Li does after you decide to sacrifice yourself...I think that's less pure evil and more '♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I cannot believe that worked on my dumbass student!'

[stcaFylnO]

Good point! :D

I guess I should have included the glaze-eye'd teacher, indoctrinated student, ever watchful Jade Golem, dialouge, and camera angle of looking down upon all the little people. I forgot that 90% of a joke is the set-up and delivery, not the punch line ;)

[__-__-__]

I found the CF/OP descriptions intriguing and the execution of some characters works out well within the system, but too often there would be some black and white instance that made me think there was someone on the writing team that didn't quite get the point. This is most prevalent in the PC's choices but is present throughout the game.

So many actions could be OP or CF at the same time that it is quite difficult to accept the game's black and white interpretations of the choices available to me. They wanted both paths to be valid but wound up making OP "good" and CF "evil". Take the ending choices for example: you either take the Water Dragon's power for yourself or let the Dragon die. Taking another's power is at odds with the self sufficiency part of the CF philosophy, while using such powers to continue to protect the Jade Empire from the possibility of drought or any other threat is very OP. Letting the Dragon die could be a CF choice if the decision was based on the idea that the Empire has been sheltered long enough and it's high time they faced reality, or died. There is also a fairly strong implication that the Empire is in for years of rough conditions (cosmic rebalancing) the instant they are no longer tapping the Dragon's powers, so letting it die could actually be very contrary to the OP philosophy, the death of the Dragon is likely to mean suffering for the people of the Empire. The three brothers can be seen in this manner as well.

Or take the binding of a soul: an undoubtedly evil act, but there are reasons within each philosophy to do it.

They never do anything more than generalized descriptions as well. Is it really CF to leverage people for money, other stuff? Is it really OP to help someone to the point that they can't actually help themselves anymore? How big are the concepts of this philosophy? Do they work only in relation to the Jade Empire or is it a whole world kind of thing?

Finally, before they made Jade Empire Bioware made the game Neverwinter Nights (not the MMO on Steam), that game has a Good/Evil, Lawful/Chaotic matrix in it, but they almost didn't use the Lawful/Chaotic axis, it simply existed most of the time, Bioware seems to have significant difficulty in using anything more than a single axis alignment system and it has actually hampered thier storytelling significantly over the years.

[cdrive1]

Yeah, see: While Closed Fist is painful, it does end up encouraging others to do SOME form of good, if only to counter your pressence. While Open Palm, sure it is Charitible but it can get to the point where you are just giving a man a fish instead of teaching them to fish, which can lead to some bad later as they expect the world to give them things instead of earning them.

[Zef]

You do realize Jade Empire, and the Bioware of old are dead. No sequal, and especially not an RPG like this. To difficult to play for the kiddies these days. Doesn't matter one bit.

[stcaFylnO]

Woot! New posters!

Sesh's point about different writers would explain a lot; additionally, I hadn't considered the one axis angle. I'm wondering if so many of the choices are polarized, just to make them easier for the players to identify. Perhaps they were trying to make choices obvious for very young players? This makes me think of the basic color puzzles.

I always think it is odd, that the goody-goody ending leads to a flourishing empire. I guess they needed a happy ending for US market. Shouldn't the empire struggle though, due to drought? Shouldn't the good ending focus on people pulling together during adversity?

I understand what Caelistas is saying, but I've had a lot of fun in cdrive1's thread. As for too difficult for today's market? Sadly, I agree.

Maybe JE was just before its time?
I recommend playing "Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor" and comparing these two titles. ME:SoM is worth checking out, just for the "Nemesis System", but it will really drive home Caeilstas' point, regarding difficulty; for me, I see it as the epitome of modern design for the ADHD. Apparently, a large segment of consumers suffer from poor frustration tolerance.

[__-__-__]

@cdrive1 From the ingame description I imagined the CF path being pragmatism and OP being altruism (similar to the paragon/reneged system of Mass Effect). From what I remember CF is all about self sufficiency and strength, the ones who survive are strong. But I also seem to remember that the CF philosophy will intervene if the odds are impossibly unfair (unreasonable) which gives any number of the most prominent OP decisions grounds to be considered CF as well.

For instance: the dam at Tien's Landing (I think that's what that place is called), closing the dam is helping a small town against the Lotus Assassins (I think) who represent a good portion of the power of the empire. This tiny port town on a lake is being beset by one of the most dangerous groups within the empire, by the description of CF it is actually in accordance with the philosophy to help the town, but doing so is always OP.

Another example: Death's Hand, you can bind him to your will for the purpose of making him redeem himself (I think he actually does if you choose to bind him), this choice is always CF but isn't taking someone's will from them for the greater good the very definition of OP?

@stcaFylnO I'm not sure it's a deficit on the part of the players so much as a preconception on the part of the writers. Bioware got it's start with D&D based systems, in D&D alignment is used to enforce roleplay, forcing players to play a specific way with specific classes. After Neverwinter Nights Bioware began moving away from the alignment restriction concept, but still added incentives to encourage people to pick an alignment and stick with it. KotOR uses stat bonuses and provides bonuses or penalties to the cost of using a specific power based on alignment, there are techniques that work better based on alignment in Jade Empire, when players are describing their "Commander Shepard" they almost always use the words Paragon or Renegade and deviating from one side too much can bring about significant penalties in the way the story unfolds. I think Bioware feels that it needs to force or incentivize it's players to role play rather than just letting them do so on thier own.

There were a number of moments where the writing in this game just fell apart, the OP ending is one of them. I'm not sure Bioware had the time they needed to fully develop the game (it is the shortest game from them that I've ever played) and actually had to slap some stuff together to meet a deadline.

Another example: You have a fatal flaw in your technique that Sun Li knows how to take advantage of, however, when you face him you have done nothing to address the flaw and he doesn't take advantage of it, or even mention it again, it simply disappears because it's.... inconveniant? Not really that bad? So easily corrected that they didn't even mention that you did so making the perceptive player think they had missed something and were about to die in a cutscene again?

[stcaFylnO]

Sesh,

Awesome and detailed review with great examples, thx man.

You just got me thinking, so I checked release dates of Bioware products. At first glance, I don't see any obvious conflicts in regard to JE budget; it wasn't even a pre-Christmas rush. Do you have any insights on why corners were cut on JE? Even the textual endings support your idea. It is the same stunt SSI pulled with "Eye of the Beholder".

Maybe it was an issue with the publisher? I'm not sure why they'd rush an Xbox title in 2005, just 7 months before an Xbox 360 release period. Unless... maybe they rushed it, because the new console was looming on the horizon, interest was on an upcoming title, and they didn't want to spend time updating JE?

MS Studios (2005):
Age of Empires III (Ensamble Studios)
Age of Empires III Collector's Edition
Dungeon Siege II (Gas Powered Games)
Fable: The Lost Chapters (Lionhead Studios)
Hexic (Carbonated Games)
Zoo Tycoon 2: Endangered Species (Blue Fang Games)
Forza Motorsport (Turn Ten Studios)
Conker (Rare)
Kameo (Rare)
Perfect Dark Zero (Rare)
<others?>

[cdrive1]

Originally posted by Sesh:

@cdrive1 From the ingame description I imagined the CF path being pragmatism and OP being altruism (similar to the paragon/reneged system of Mass Effect). From what I remember CF is all about self sufficiency and strength, the ones who survive are strong. But I also seem to remember that the CF philosophy will intervene if the odds are impossibly unfair (unreasonable) which gives any number of the most prominent OP decisions grounds to be considered CF as well.

For instance: the dam at Tien's Landing (I think that's what that place is called), closing the dam is helping a small town against the Lotus Assassins (I think) who represent a good portion of the power of the empire. This tiny port town on a lake is being beset by one of the most dangerous groups within the empire, by the description of CF it is actually in accordance with the philosophy to help the town, but doing so is always OP.

Another example: Death's Hand, you can bind him to your will for the purpose of making him redeem himself (I think he actually does if you choose to bind him), this choice is always CF but isn't taking someone's will from them for the greater good the very definition of OP?

@stcaFylnO I'm not sure it's a deficit on the part of the players so much as a preconception on the part of the writers. Bioware got it's start with D&D based systems, in D&D alignment is used to enforce roleplay, forcing players to play a specific way with specific classes. After Neverwinter Nights Bioware began moving away from the alignment restriction concept, but still added incentives to encourage people to pick an alignment and stick with it. KotOR uses stat bonuses and provides bonuses or penalties to the cost of using a specific power based on alignment, there are techniques that work better based on alignment in Jade Empire, when players are describing their "Commander Shepard" they almost always use the words Paragon or Renegade and deviating from one side too much can bring about significant penalties in the way the story unfolds. I think Bioware feels that it needs to force or incentivize it's players to role play rather than just letting them do so on thier own.

There were a number of moments where the writing in this game just fell apart, the OP ending is one of them. I'm not sure Bioware had the time they needed to fully develop the game (it is the shortest game from them that I've ever played) and actually had to slap some stuff together to meet a deadline.

Another example: You have a fatal flaw in your technique that Sun Li knows how to take advantage of, however, when you face him you have done nothing to address the flaw and he doesn't take advantage of it, or even mention it again, it simply disappears because it's.... inconveniant? Not really that bad? So easily corrected that they didn't even mention that you did so making the perceptive player think they had missed something and were about to die in a cutscene again?

Two theories about that whole 'Weakness not exploited' bit...Either A: You managed to close off that weakness off-screen but this is unlikely as that would mean unlearning all the things Master Li had taught, which could take YEARS. OR B: Master Li did say that there would be no tricks or godly power, just skill and skill alone. Which means he even won't hit that one weakness. But yeah that can be a big hole in the writing and what I just said were theories.

[__-__-__]

@stcaFylnO I can't find any evidence they were rushed but 2 years is a tight schedule (KotOR released on 2003, Jade Empire was 2005), it usually takes 3-5 years to make a new game (most games that most people hail as "really good" fall within that range), so if they just had 2, for whatever reason, they probably were rushing. Which seems even more likely given all the new(ish) concepts and game mechanics they were trying to figure out.

@cdrive I think it's even possible that they chose to do it that way. Many martial arts movies I've seen have glaring plot holes, it's not as if they were made to showcase writing skill. Maybe Bioware left that issue unaddressed as part of thier homage to the genre (best case scenario).