Money or minions, but time? (Heat Scheme Cost)

[SpellSword0]

A thought just came to me, why some long scheme times feel bad even as I made another thread defending them.

I think it's the heat reduction schemes specifically!

You have two types: The ones that take a chunk of change, and the ones that take a chunk of valets.

Which is fine but...! I think the valet schemes overcharge you by also taking 30 mins to an hour or more to run their course. This feels unnecessarily long and grindy.

Unlike long money schemes where you constantly get small deposits of the cash reward over time which you can do something with, long heat reduction schemes don't give you anything you can use and exist to only to act as a much longer lockout for your network that can only run one scheme!

This is why network lockouts that take 5 mins, feel 1000x more beneficial than trying to run a half hour heat reduction scheme!

I think the cost of minion blood should be enough of a price and the scheme timer should be down to at least a minute, or five minutes! Or 30 seconds like the paid ones. If the time is too short then up the cost of valets, I'd be fine with that.

Thoughts?

[tripbillie]

I think the schemes you run depend on your goals. In early game when money is tight, I do 2 quick money gain schemes (so heat was around 30), then run a long heat reduction scheme so I don't lose half the money I just gained. Once the casino is cheating guests this also helps on the money gain, but this allowed for me to monitor agents on my island while keeping researching going and building out the infrastructure of my base (power, money storage, and number of minions along with support rooms for them).

IIRC, in EG1 there was heat gain just from sending minions to the map. Also, stealing money/looking for intel had a "heat over time" gain too. The only way to get heat to drop was to either have minions hide (which had a time limit) or pull them off the map entirely. How it is now in EG2 is not that different from EG1.

[Sovereign246]

You still get income from that network while a heat reduction scheme is running. If you want you can view it as not having to worry about it all for the next 30 minutes.

The issue here is that the lock-down penalty is too lenient. I disagree with an earlier poster who said that it should destroy them. That would just make it frustrating and un-enjoyable. No the plenty needs to be something that encourages you to manage it. Like having to endure waves of attacks while the lock down is present or making it so that while the lockdown is present higher quality agents are sent.

I'll be honest i'm not sure how sincere you actually are with this considering you believe the best way to play the game is to not engage with any of its systems at all. Quite how you can then turn around and say they dont work when you've not even bothered with them i'm not really sure.

[Mandemon]

IMO Lockdown penalty should be double the heat reduction scheme. That way it will actually hurt.

[Xero]

Launch a long scheme to reduce heat when you have a story mission in that area that will generate, say, 90 heat in a tier 2 network but don't have enough intel to pay for the reduction and do the mission before needing another heat reduction scheme.

[FDR'sThinkTank]

The Long Heat Scheme wouldn't be so bad if it could ignore triggering Super Agents on completion or avoid the extra Heat Build up when there is a local Super Agent watching. If you are running a long heat scheme, at minimum, it should lock down heat gain in that specific region, until it finishes and clears heat... even if you aren't going to let it slowly reduce heat while it runs.

As it stands, the best apparent use of the Long Heat Scheme will instead provoke combat, which is redundant since you have a myriad of other ways to do exactly the same thing. Of course, maybe the intention wasn't to allow this to work that way, but in Evil Genius 1, you could send your network into hiding, which is supposed to be the same thing. This would work even with investigators present... it was the actually the biggest reason to go into hiding.

Maybe it does all this when everything has been researched and you are running enough Heat reduction equipment, but the scheme itself shouldn't require all that support to achieve it's purpose. The Research should just make it more effective at it's purpose.

[RED]

I use money only. I just can't be bothered to return to the world map to do the actual scheme I wanted cuz I usually forget and there is already some heat there when I get back. And you are never too sure how fast your minions will get there. It is better to pay and forget.

[SpellSword0]

Publicado originalmente por Nya!:

Fixing the core without rebalancing the dependancies would be pretty much pointless, so this must go hand in hand.
Without passive heat gain - such long deheat schemes would become useless, and must be shortened.

To be honest, I don't have any faith that the developers will do the kind of rebalancing that would be needed after such changes are made. Not initially anyway. I'm sure it'll happen after the fact as new waves of complaints come up and bla bla bla.

I guess I was just trying to get ahead of the game with this thread, hopefully addressing something now instead of two months from now.

Publicado originalmente por OtokuJames:

I use the minions to lower the heat when the super agents are on that region. It keeps them from noticing and shutting down the region all the time, but it's hard to get the minions there on time when they are waiting in line for the helicopter.

I keep hearing about this thing that some heat schemes don't attract the super agents, but I'm not familiar with the details and I wish the game was more open about these things!

Publicado originalmente por predator246:

The issue here is that the lock-down penalty is too lenient. I disagree with an earlier poster who said that it should destroy them. That would just make it frustrating and un-enjoyable. No the plenty needs to be something that encourages you to manage it. Like having to endure waves of attacks while the lock down is present or making it so that while the lockdown is present higher quality agents are sent.

I agree it is too lenient! And I like the idea that a lockdown would cause a sort of, scripted agent invasion of sorts. It needs SOME penalty, for sure! But then you'd be back to playing the heat micro management game with the passive heat system constantly, and I still wouldn't feel inclined to upgrade a network for more than one schemes length.

Publicado originalmente por MaebeKnot:

It's also not a great idea to just let heat raise without reduction. Letting a zone lock down. You will encourage more FoJ and stronger ones. This might not matter on lower difficulties. I don't know. I have only played on hard.

As far as I know, the lockdown itself doesn't actually do anything directly, rather it's the heat that it's locked at that would do anything at all. So say 49 heat with no lockdown could be just as bad as 50 heat with a lockdown, no real difference. Higher heat does make higher level agents appear though, yes. But it's also limited to total amount of networks and their levels in any one faction.

About difficulty! Can we assume that the custom difficulty option shows, without a doubt, every mechanic tied to difficulty? If it doesn't, like if there are other unlisted systems that are affected by difficulty but not present in the custom list... Then what difficulty do you suppose they'd use if you're using a custom difficulty?

Publicado originalmente por tripbillie:

IIRC, in EG1 there was heat gain just from sending minions to the map. Also, stealing money/looking for intel had a "heat over time" gain too. The only way to get heat to drop was to either have minions hide (which had a time limit) or pull them off the map entirely. How it is now in EG2 is not that different from EG1.

So in EG1 heat gain was always an immediate burst, never a gradual incline. Sent a minion to the map? BAM! +30 heat! Completed a mission/scheme/act of infamy/what ever? BAM! +50 heat! There was never heat gain over time, just immediate heat relative to what you were doing, then it stopped there.

Hiding did not actually lower heat, it merely kept your minions on the map from being killed due to attrition of agents being in the area.

Heat did passively decline in EG1, but only when there was nothing present keeping it at maximum value. I.E. minions standing around. The heat would never lower beyond the max heat that minions caused by simply being present.

Publicado originalmente por Mandemon:

IMO Lockdown penalty should be double the heat reduction scheme. That way it will actually hurt.

But due to passive heat gain across every network you have, what's really going to hurt is having to spend your entire game time on the world map taking care of it. Which, some people are already needlessly doing! But only because they haven't fully realized how the game works, and who can blame them? The game makes no effort in instructing the player on how to play.

No, the tutorial doesn't count! Actually some people have said the tutorial teaches you things counter to what you should be doing, and I tend to agree with them.

Publicado originalmente por Supply Lines:

The Long Heat Scheme wouldn't be so bad if it could ignore triggering Super Agents on completion or avoid the extra Heat Build up when there is a local Super Agent watching.

Some people say it doesn't actually trigger super agents! But I don't really know that for sure. I've heard that its actually only specific heat reduction schemes that don't trigger them, which could be a bug or just another unexplained mechanic.

Publicado originalmente por predator246:

I'll be honest i'm not sure how sincere you actually are with this considering you believe the best way to play the game is to not engage with any of its systems at all. Quite how you can then turn around and say they dont work when you've not even bothered with them i'm not really sure.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/700600/discussions/0/3166568651717158229/

I made this thread later because there seemed to be a lot of confusion around what I actually did during my play time in the game...

For thirty hours from launch, I tried my hardest to engage with the games mechanics. I spent thirty hours really trying to figure out how to play! Really trying to use traps, and casinos, and distraction, and world screen management, and come up with base layouts, and consider things strategically, and tried to actually stop investigators!

I tried to play the game, for thirty hours... And maybe I just got VERY unlucky having picked all the fire prone things in a row... But it wasn't just the fire. I did have, like, 10-20 min burst of fun, between five hours of pain. By the end of it I was ready to just give up on EG2 entirely...

But I decided to give it another chance starting over as Emma. And that's when I realized, all these mechanics that felt like I was being punished for using, while gaining nothing in return? They could just be ignored... And even though my second attempt playing was, not as fun as the first, for obvious reasons I know I did avoid playing the game. I was none the less determined to finish the game before I felt I had any right to speak about it, so I did.

[Foefaller]

Publicado originalmente por Mandemon:

IMO Lockdown penalty should be double the heat reduction scheme. That way it will actually hurt.

The game already has significant problems with things taking too long as it is, let's not make it worse.

The easy "fix" it would seem to me would be if a lockdown caused an immediate spawning of agents, ideally non-investigators. That would make lockdowns something you'd want to avoid. Still, I think that would be best paired with a reduction to the amount of time the minion scheme takes as well.

[Twelvefield]

This is sort of like how Raiders Of The Lost Ark would have turned out exactly the same way if Indiana Jones had simply stayed home grading essays. There is a lot of truth in what you say and I agree, but there is also a lot of wilful suspension of disbelief because of the novelty of the scene, and everything for good or for ill labours to cover a truly massive plot hole - the protagonist is extraneous.

The first game had this issue as well, but the controls were more granular. The grind was worse, and you could certainly create a fail state for your base that was impossible to recover. That was no fun either. The unofficial official patch did improve EG1, though. I expect the same for this title.

There's another analogue I was thinking of: Air Force One - the plane, not the movie. Before AF1 was a jumbo jet, the President had a small console he could use to control his environment on the plane. One of the dials was a thermostat. Before that console was installed, the President would call to the cockpit to get the pilots to change the cabin temperature. Some Presidents made a big deal about it, and this annoyed the pilots who were trying to do their job. So the solution was to give the President his own temperature dial.

Only the dial was never connected to anything. If the President was hot or cold, he'd twist the knob and feel better. Even on AF1, on those old planes air conditioning was cranky and prone to not work as intended if at all. If everyone was happier with a placebo, then that saved the pilots from the very uncomfortable chore of trying to fix the air temperature while in view of the POTUS.

I'm not trying to make excuses for Rebellion, only commenting on what I see and the associations I have with how things work in my world.

[Ammikaameri]

I mostly use the longer heat reductions as they allow you to forget about the whole zone for a while, countering the passive gain. Instant ones are really only useful if you need to run a specific scheme (for example for a quest). Same with money ones, the best ones are the longest ones as you need to run them once and then you steadily get money for 2 hours per scheme.

[Tomba]

Minion heat reduction is actually my preferred action. Unless I'm in need of money, or one of those horrible "do X 79 times on the world map', I prefer every region to have a minion-based heat reduction. I dislike it when they only take 15 minutes.
The reason for this is obvious: any time spent on the world map, is making me dislike the game more. Not having to care about the most afwul design decision of the year, continuously rising heat levels, is worth a thousand valets to me.

[Sovereign246]

Sorry but your second thread is you playing poorly. As i did on my first playthrough. Instead of trying to actually learn the games systems you threw the baby out with the bath water and in your first thread admitted you got lucky when you had enough money to spam construction workers at the super agents and that the super agents came through the helipad.

So no sorry. Your second thread is not proof that you tried. only that you gave up.

Why in my Emma game was i able to get my casino to turn away 90% of agents? Why as Zalika was i able to create an effective trap system that protected my base to the extent that i was able to use well below minion capacity (which i did deliberately as a self imposed challenge because i wanted to rely on traps as the main defence). Yet you claim these systems are useless when you have not actually put the effort in to use them? Why in my Ivan campaign am i able to create an effective security system? if the game is so shallow why, in 3 campaigns, was i able to use very different approaches to defending my base, each of them successful.

That you then believe you have any kind of authority on the game and its systems is actually laughable. In any other community your attempt at feedback would be unacceptable.

I've played 3 campaign now, fully using these systems and yes there are issues that need addressed. But unlike you i can actually point to what those issues are (and have done so in a dedicated feedback thread) and give suggestions on how to fix them, while all you can do is whine that the systems are broken and that Rebellion needs to rework the game completely.

[SpellSword0]

Publicado originalmente por Twelvefield:

I'm not trying to make excuses for Rebellion, only commenting on what I see and the associations I have with how things work in my world.

And you are absolutely right. Mathematical balance is one thing, but its just as important if not more so that something in a game "feels good" for the player to engage with.

I don't wanna get too far off topic, and I'm sure many people are already familiar with this story. But to add one more example I'd bring up the "rest experience system" in World of Warcraft.

Originally, it was a system that punished you for playing too long, by lowering you exp gain the longer you played. Understandably, people hated it! So, Blizzard flipped it around. Instead of punishing you with diminishing experience for playing too long, it now rewarded you with bonus exp for taking a break.

People praised this new system! But the truth is, the system didn't change. Under the hood it was still the exact same system, but it was being presented differently. Perception plays a big role in how a player will feel about a game while having a real effect on their enjoyment or disdain.

Publicado originalmente por Ammikaameri:

I mostly use the longer heat reductions as they allow you to forget about the whole zone for a while, countering the passive gain.

It's interesting to see people come out and say this! Perhaps I misjudged what I thought many peoples perspectives on the long heat schemes were.

Publicado originalmente por Ammikaameri:

Instant ones are really only useful if you need to run a specific scheme (for example for a quest). Same with money ones, the best ones are the longest ones as you need to run them once and then you steadily get money for 2 hours per scheme.

You made me realize something! Well, you and the talk about placebos and perceptions. I think I know partly why I dislike the long heat schemes soo much. It's because I have to cancel them when I need to run a mission in that region.

Why do I hate canceling them? Because the stat screen specifically displays a dedicated number to canceled schemes, and this number is colored red while all other numbers around it are white. I know it doesn't actually matter, but it makes me feel like the game is saying, "This is how many times you screwed up! You had to cancel this many schemes cause you failed!"

I'm not sure why this stat, of all stats, is presented the way it is in the game. It's a bit puzzling.

[Tomba]

Publicado originalmente por predator246:

Sorry but your second thread is you playing poorly. As i did on my first playthrough. Instead of trying to actually learn the games systems you threw the baby out with the bath water and in your first thread admitted you got lucky when you had enough money to spam construction workers at the super agents and that the super agents came through the helipad.

So no sorry. Your second thread is not proof that you tried. only that you gave up.

Why in my Emma game was i able to get my casino to turn away 90% of agents? Why as Zalika was i able to create an effective trap system that protected my base to the extent that i was able to use well below minion capacity (which i did deliberately as a self imposed challenge because i wanted to rely on traps as the main defence). Yet you claim these systems are useless when you have not actually put the effort in to use them? Why in my Ivan campaign am i able to create an effective security system? if the game is so shallow why, in 3 campaigns, was i able to use very different approaches to defending my base, each of them successful.

That you then believe you have any kind of authority on the game and its systems is actually laughable. In any other community your attempt at feedback would be unacceptable.

I've played 3 campaign now, fully using these systems and yes there are issues that need addressed. But unlike you i can actually point to what those issues are (and have done so in a dedicated feedback thread) and give suggestions on how to fix them, while all you can do is whine that the systems are broken and that Rebellion needs to rework the game completely.

I think you are not only replying to the wrong thread (this one is about the time vs minions in heat reduction), but about a completely other game. None of what you said is true for Evil Genius 2.

[FDR'sThinkTank]

I definitely feel like cancelling schemes isn't a bad thing. There doesn't seem to be a reward tied to completing schemes fully, only a punishment in that they can activate and attract super agents. Maybe I'm not clear on something about Super Agent traits... it's possible, Agent X, who is a dedicated Investigator, is activated by Heat Reduction schemes completing, but other Super Agents aren't. However, I'm pretty sure I have had Blue Saint and Agent Steel come after me when Heat Reduction Schemes completed in their region. I have also watched regions lock down from passive heat while a slow cook Heat Reduction scheme was running where there is a Super Agent.

I can sorta tolerate the quick Heat Reduction scheme completion alerting Super Agents and agitating them. It's sloppy work. The Slow Cook ones shouldn't do that though.

Again, maybe it doesn't do this with all Super Agents.. but I haven't yet seen a difference in how Super Agents interact with schemes on the world map.