Are traps pointless?

[Bearded Giant]

I ask because I can't remember the last time someone triggered even my first freeze ray in the entry hall. Sure, they saw a little tiny bit of use in very early game, but now that I'm midgame and my casino is established, my valets and socialites keep the general investigators well away from my base and the Supers and their teams are practically immune. Do they find any use in late game or do I have to dismantle my casino if I want to see my traps actually go off?

[Azure]

I have only found use in the frost trap near my entrance as it will quickly drain resolve of agents. No other trap seems worth it as it barely hurts anyone, anyone better then Average will just disarm it, and they seem to kill more minions then agents who get caught in the cross fire. Super Agent teams, the ones you really need the help of traps to lower their health, seem to be immune to them as they disable them all. Pretty sure they are only in the game for a "Wacky" or cartoon-ish feel to the early game agents.

[se05239]

Any trap that doesn't reduce Resolve is pretty much useless. You want Investigators to leave healthy, as it'll make it so that Soldiers don't come to your base and you won't have to juggle body bags (and risk losing your own minions to the traps). Use the Cover Operation/Casino to lower skill and then use traps to lower Resolve on now low-skill agents. When Resolve hit 0, they'll just leave.

[olstar18]

A couple of traps are pointless but a string of traps is useful. I have a trap corridor going off my casino and it kills a lot of high level investigators and soldiers. Also use trap combo's like freeze ray in front of a fan that blows them into a shark tank. Sometimes they will disable the freeze ray but get hit by the fan and tank. Also if the hallway is long enough by the time they turn around and head back most of the traps behind them have reset and you get a second shot with them.

[Nahui Ollin]

The reason traps are pointless is because you have to work around line of sight for the mid and end game.

if the agent sees a trap, it will not work.

Having an agent disable a soap trap while a trap THEY DO NOT SEE activates is how its done after that. The problem is late game agents show up in hordes and disable every trap because they outnumber your traps and disable things the moment they see them.

Fans and magnets pushing agents into traps are your bread and butter in the late game, using soap traps as decoys so they can pop off.

However, it all becomes pointless as suspicion going too high creates a feedback loop of 5 high level agents that can't be stopped without heat.

[Tenshin51]

Beating Ivan Campaign Casino is just super effective, cheap and low maintenance. Also unlocking 5 Henchman and a hordes of muscle minions. Late game traps are not really needed but it depends on your base layout, muscle minions and henchman.

Traps have a tons of problem:
Traps needed a lot of power

Traps research are freakin expensive and a time waster.

Traps are expensive, playing Ivan seeing those traps being burned. It's like burning my cash. Also doing side mission that involving Inciendo and Killer robot seeing those traps being destroyed by those side mission it's like wasting money.

Traps needed high maintenance, in all items in the game technician constantly babysit traps. Making traps pointless in Red Alert due your technicians will be hiding and not repairing your traps. Traps that are not repaired will be disable. Also you cannot avoid using Red Alert because you need to use Superweapon to progress the game.

Traps needed manpower like Technicians.

Traps needed some synergy w/ casino because casino lowers agent skills. Even with zero skill agent have a chance to disable your trap.

Traps needed LOS , more traps and doors those can be destroyed by a side mission and even a Super Agent. Wrecking Bola can destroy doors and even Paywall trap.

[Trogdor]

For me the best way to make the traps work is to place them right on the other side of a door so the agents don't see it until after its been triggered. I also have a strip of hallway in my prison so any that escape will be killed before they can cause any problems.

I also found that the best way to test a trap setup is to use it for an interrogation. And it will get you the trap achievements when you do.

[ImHelping]

Originally posted by gomer672:

For me the best way to make the traps work is to place them right on the other side of a door so the agents don't see it until after its been triggered. I also have a strip of hallway in my prison so any that escape will be killed before they can cause any problems.

I also found that the best way to test a trap setup is to use it for an interrogation. And it will get you the trap achievements when you do.

Testing a trap setup with an interrogation is only to see if it will combo in the first place (unless it glitches at least, even a functional fan combo can have multiple agents no clip through a 2x3 stretch of slippery floor without triggering them because... ♥♥♥♥ you?).

Because interrogating with a trap is always deadly. I've killed agents with a single slippery floor panel that deals zero damage via "interrogation".

You won't get any useful data for how well the trap combo even works via interrogate. But you might be tricked into thinking "Wow, this trap combo is so op!" when you watch a normally king of "Disarmed by zero skill agents" boxing glove kills a prisoner after sending them through a pinball loop.

Most of my "So they went from zero reseolve to 5" or "They went from zero resolve to 5... 10.. 28... 42... 63.. 73. 73 resolve and didn't even get any skill drained from the freeze ray + bees combo" if they are in the same zip code as incriminating objects.

Also no that isn't an exaggeration.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2458182813

I wonder if they are shamelessly cheating like a spoiled child who didn't clean their room, crying "But I was GONNA take a picture! It still counts!" even when you build a series of fans and bubbles and magnet shoves them out of the room entirely to keep them from taking pictures of incinerators?

Maybe this is the cause of zero skill trap disarms too? "I was GONNA disarm the next trap! No fair interrupting me with a freeze ray stopping me and bringing me to zero skill! I'm still gonna disarm the trap and if you think that's dumb well clearly you are bad at videogames my mom making steele clones thinks I'm cool!


Traps CAN do their job, but you are basically overcoming the fact agents have an overtuned minimum competence and your traps have an undertuned minimum competence. The best trap setups are when you admit this, basically.

Along with being very self aware of how combo damage really works. I see a loooot of links to "Great OP trap combos" Where they show agents being pushed through laser walls for only 10 damage instead of the full 50 they would take by being stuck in the laser the full duration. The flamethrower meanwhile can feel underwhelming ("Okay so it does... roughly half the damage of the weaker tier of traps?"), but you get proper combo damage with it from a moment's contact.

See also: "Muscle minions are OP!" "A level 2 investigator just killed a 100 health guard twice their size in three punches" "Yeah well he's a generic minion it would be OP if agents couldn't fight back!" "The MARTIAL ARTIST only punches for FIVE DAMAGE" "...yeah well they are still OP because they get punched back for less damage! And once you spam enough minions to get around all your problems you win so therefore OP OP OP plz nerf" *escaped investigator with 20 health remembers he still has guns and still somehow manages to kill a 100 health guardpost hitman outside in the hallway with a rifle before the hitman shoots back*

[kasnavada]

Originally posted by Bearded Giant:

I ask because I can't remember the last time someone triggered even my first freeze ray in the entry hall. Sure, they saw a little tiny bit of use in very early game, but now that I'm midgame and my casino is established, my valets and socialites keep the general investigators well away from my base and the Supers and their teams are practically immune. Do they find any use in late game or do I have to dismantle my casino if I want to see my traps actually go off?

They're not pointless, it's possible to make it so traps clear most of agent waves.

However, other systems like the casino and the guard room are way easier to setup and way more cost effective.

Hopefully it'll get balanced soon.

[cwattyeso]

I'd say Traps are pointless, either in a corridor setup from your cover area or from corridors from the second/worker/helipad entrance to the base. Intruders coming into the base whether tagged or not, just instantly go about disabling the traps or in the later game destroying them. The traps never trigger on them and don't slow them down.

Only time I see my traps actually in use, active and defeating the intruders is when they have made the decision themselves to leave the base. Once they start heading for the exits they seem to trigger every single trap and get hit by them on the way out, they never try to disable or destroy traps when they have made the decision to leave your island and have the leave icon on them. I watch them literally walk through and get hit by all ten traps in my exit corridors and eventually they are killed before they get to the door to leave.

I'd have expected the traps to do this on the intruders entry into the base and I'd have certainly have expected the higher tier traps unlocked via level 3 research and higher to be more resistant and unable to be deactivated by intruders, to warrant their cost not only in the time and cost to research them but also the cost to place and power them in your base.

[Btad]

i have tried a really long hallway with all sorts of traps at every point. the only thing that ever happens for me is all my techs go to "repair" the traps while agents are in the hall and the agents just kill all my tech and valets.

[rorgfist]

A corridor full of poison darts ios a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ death tunnel due to how little space they use. Its quite powerful, but this is the exception more than the rule.

[Holce]

To trap high level agent or superagent, you need the trap's area of effect to overlap. Magnet, fan and soap trap are good for that. With their 9 range you can overlap fan, magnet and put 2 soap. So three traps effect on the same area. This lets 5 tiles for other trap or fliper bumper to send agent in a corridor. Most agent will not be able to disarm that if they are not to much group up.

[ImHelping]

Originally posted by Holce:

To trap high level agent or superagent, you need the trap's area of effect to overlap. Magnet, fan and soap trap are good for that. With their 9 range you can overlap fan, magnet and put 2 soap. So three traps effect on the same area. This lets 5 tiles for other trap or fliper bumper to send agent in a corridor. Most agent will not be able to disarm that if they are not to much group up.

I was testing that for a bit with an otherwise hilarious to watch but far too minion collateral damage prone setup, and... agents will hapilly disarm cross coverage traps they can't see coming if they are still in the mood to show off "Still allowed to disarm traps!"

Sometimes you get the big ♥♥♥♥ you where you set up a double sided 'freeze rays and darts and two magnets crossing the same hallway path on opposite sides' where the squad splits up and they all disarm individual trap elements and nobody gets caught. Unless they are already collectivley pre-drained enough to not want to disarm stuff in the first place.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2468264330

(There is a reason for the skewed 'some easily seen, some hidden until too late' openings that isn't for 'to fit more freeze rays per foot'. we will get back to that)

That said even when it WORKS still underlines how half baked combos QA was. Because magnets cancel combo harm 90% of the time at 90% of distances.

Want someone to actually suffer freeze ray ice cube damage in your magnet combo? Well it better be at the far extreme edge of a magnet or it will simply break the icecube early and they take zero freeze ray harm.

When it actually ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ works it is smart enough to bounce and roll an ice cube through an angled 2 tile wide slot into a magnet closet, sure. One of the most cathartic things I've seen in the game...but even that is working AROUND the issues with traps, just to get your combo working as promised.

"Trap combos are much easier than EG1!" "How come a bunch of these combos do nothing but trigger extra traps without any extra damage unless I place the traps at a very specific maximum distance from eachother?" "...sounds like you are just bad at traps!" "If I was bad at traps how would I be able to notice this problem?"

Which is also ignoring the fact of just how... MUCH trap ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ it took to get even cultivated for testing "Just level 3, that is weak right?" investigators to turn back on their own merits without dithering "Well if your casino drains 99% of their resolve first, THEN traps are good!".... some would still make it through the gauntlet by utilizing hefty zone reading to shove their noses into a magnet zone and freeze ray blast saying "Technically I'm out of range!"

Just think about that. six magnets. six bees. six darts. eight freeze rays. and with every single one of them never ever getting disarmed... ♥♥♥♥ tier agents still would usually have some people make it through just due to how it is like pulling teeth catching a whole squad at once unlike EG1. (And that was including bees coming out to chase agents who were still 'safe' outside in the hallways). A full squad '♥♥♥♥ this we are going home' was the exception, not the norm, for even something as rube goldberg as that.

And again, in case of the usual sorry ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ excuse of "Well if your casino was better then-"

My casino resolve busting was often turned off to test traps, to see how much traps are worth a damn on their own merits in stress testing. (No wonder so many apologists go "...Well once you have the very final trap in the game then lol spamming venus spy trap OP because it actually works on more agents!" )

And even then the people who love to shift the argument to "Well casino should have been better if you want a massive pile of elaborate traps to work!" is admitting traps are way weaker than they deserve.


Also, as for "Just hide your traps from sight that makes them always work!"... Nope. Not in my own sandbox science rube goldberg testing. (remember, if an agent wants to disarm a magnet, the magnet ignores that agent and lets them walk closer to disarm it. so 'it is too far away for them to sense!' is not the factor of trying to brute force traps).

Instead leaving agents with plenty of skill for testing reasons also revealed "In plain view" vs "Hidden from sight" traps had basically the same chance of being disarmed. So 'hiding your traps in slots works better!' is a case of 'they would have fallen for it anyways'.

A freeze ray out in the open everyone can see will be triggered when skill is too low to be allowed to disarm. a pair of slots carved into the walls so you can't see them coming until you are already in their trap zones WILL be disarmed if agents are in the mood to spam disarms.


So yeah... "Oh but traps are not useless" is a very exact words monkey's paw claim. Because the input vs output is very skewed even when you are making traps combos that don't sabotage themselves with damage canceling.

I still think it is better to have some traps rather than zero traps even as tempting as that is. But you honestly can't get anything approaching "Finally these traps are doing their job!" satisfaction even against garbage tier investigators until you have reached the point you could skip the traps entirely. And the point you wish traps worked better most of all, is earlier in when your casino object and staff are at their weakest.

[b0k0n0n]

wow... an old thread... but since i've found it - maybe it's still needed ;)
i know a thing or two about traps in EG2 (unlike in EG where i know _everything_ about traps ;))
...most of given replays are equally right and wrong at the same time
i recently finished my first hard difficulty playthrough... it took awhile because i was intensively managing heat and also testing out if traps are really that useless as they seem to be on higher level agents
what can i say? in hardmode at endgame if a heat is high you'll be getting waves of 6-agent teams of lvl 9 with all stats at 250... first come investigators, if they don't retreat (die) next wave are soldiers (same count and lvl) and then again investigators and rinse and repeat (if the heat is 0 there may come as few/low as 5 agents of lvl 8)
in my playthrough my minions had to deal with probably every 3rd wave of _soldiers_ - everyone else was dealt by traps and nobody retreated (even if some tried due to lack of resolve)
before that i eliminated all super agents and only symmetry had to interact with my henchmen (i guess you know why ;)) (but i think i'll figure out something specifically for her next time ;D) and almost dead olga reached my guardroom at the real entrance of lair...
if you're asking what happened - read the topic again and think about what the right answer could be ;P

[rorgfist]

Originally posted by b0k0n0n:

wow... an old thread... but since i've found it - maybe it's still needed ;)
i know a thing or two about traps in EG2 (unlike in EG where i know _everything_ about traps ;))
...most of given replays are equally right and wrong at the same time
i recently finished my first hard difficulty playthrough... it took awhile because i was intensively managing heat and also testing out if traps are really that useless as they seem to be on higher level agents
what can i say? in hardmode at endgame if a heat is high you'll be getting waves of 6-agent teams of lvl 9 with all stats at 250... first come investigators, if they don't retreat (die) next wave are soldiers (same count and lvl) and then again investigators and rinse and repeat (if the heat is 0 there may come as few/low as 5 agents of lvl 8)
in my playthrough my minions had to deal with probably every 3rd wave of _soldiers_ - everyone else was dealt by traps and nobody retreated (even if some tried due to lack of resolve)
before that i eliminated all super agents and only symmetry had to interact with my henchmen (i guess you know why ;)) (but i think i'll figure out something specifically for her next time ;D) and almost dead olga reached my guardroom at the real entrance of lair...
if you're asking what happened - read the topic again and think about what the right answer could be ;P

Do you have any videos of your layouts or tips to set your traps?