Soldiers Attack Valets Without Fail

[Jaemin Glider]

I have seen posts claiming that soldiers will not attack the deception minions (valets) until after the soldiers find combat minions/henchman to fight.

I think this information is incorrect and want some direct discussion to better understand what is going on.

I have soldiers enter my casino and wander around for a while before they randomly begin to shoot my valets. I'm at 100% rate that soldiers will attack my casino before they make it to my actual lair hallway & non-casino rooms.

Base design:
I am using the covered base - the helipad is in the middle and the casino at a dock entrance. Soldiers always enter via casino. There, I have over 40 deception minions and I do not have any auto-tag zones.

Soldiers can go to two possible doors: one is a dead-end of a massive locker room so I could get 300 minions in my base. Most agents/soldiers/supers go to this room first, go in, and exit again. I do not have any tag settings here.

The other door leads to a hallway 4x4 in size that has my automatic distraction tag between two doors. The second door has an almost immediate hallway turn and then a camera to call minions. I know Soldiers can't be distracted and this is a spot where I have built a combat corridor of traps, cameras, and set out of sight of the casino even if both doors open.


rant:
I'm salty because this soft locked my game with the body bags pile-up that creates infinite moral loss. Soldiers entered my casino and gunned down enough deception minions to stack too many body bags.

[Sellardohr]

I gotta say I never ran into this! I don't think anyone knows exactly the mechanics of how soldier aggro works... Any chance you could show us a screenshot or a few of this base layout?

Couple ideas I'll just toss out there, don't know if they'd be true or not:

1) Is your Casino a maze? Does it use stuff like the dividers that block pathing but don't block LOS? Does it have any Suspicion-inducing items? It's possible the soldiers are seeing something that makes them go berserk, and it's also possible they're just getting too frustrated with the pathing problems.

2) Maybe the body bags themselves are driving the soldiers into a frenzy?

I wonder: Does seeing a Suspicion-inducing item ramp up soldier aggro? Does time ramp up soldier aggro? Maybe it's the number of times they reach a dead end or experience a block of their LOS that they have to investigate...?

Maybe it's the fact that you're letting them see a non-Casino area (your locker room) and then return to the Casino? I rigged my Caine Key base up so that the first door anyone would go in would be a trap doom room, and by the time it emptied them back into the Casino I was ready for a fight. I never experimented with an off-limits room that wasn't a threat to them in any way, followed by a return to the cover op.

[Sellardohr]

P.S. If you can manage to chase off the soldiers and get a couple minutes' peace, you can always fight the morale spiral by doing executions with your genius. That was always my antidote for body bag pile-up... Just send the genius around on a witnessed execution spree.

[Stabbity]

It seemed to me soldiers only engaged my minions when on corridor tiles or other rooms that are of interest to FOJ. For example, my casino had some corridor spots for holding a camera and a fire extinguisher. And any minions on those squares was gunned down. Once I roped them off so minions wouldn't accidentally walk on the squares, then the soldiers moved through the casino without killing.

I even have wall-less rooms in the casino (barracks with a few beds, tv room with tv, and the other one that does stuff to minion brains) and no soldiers have killed minions on those squares.

[cfsmy]

Originally posted by Stabbity:

It seemed to me soldiers only engaged my minions when on corridor tiles or other rooms that are of interest to FOJ. For example, my casino had some corridor spots for holding a camera and a fire extinguisher. And any minions on those squares was gunned down. Once I roped them off so minions wouldn't accidentally walk on the squares, then the soldiers moved through the casino without killing.

I even have wall-less rooms in the casino (barracks with a few beds, tv room with tv, and the other one that does stuff to minion brains) and no soldiers have killed minions on those squares.

Probably that is the reason, most people don't realize that their valets were standing on that little 4tile corridor or sleeping in the barracks. oh yeah soldiers really like to kill them in their barracks (mine had always walls with only barracks tiles) thats why I do not place any tile other than casino in casino and if I put some cameras I use ropes or plants to cover them as much as I can so my valets don't run in to them accidently.

[Eruaph]

Originally posted by cfsmy:

Originally posted by Stabbity:

It seemed to me soldiers only engaged my minions when on corridor tiles or other rooms that are of interest to FOJ. For example, my casino had some corridor spots for holding a camera and a fire extinguisher. And any minions on those squares was gunned down. Once I roped them off so minions wouldn't accidentally walk on the squares, then the soldiers moved through the casino without killing.

I even have wall-less rooms in the casino (barracks with a few beds, tv room with tv, and the other one that does stuff to minion brains) and no soldiers have killed minions on those squares.

Probably that is the reason, most people don't realize that their valets were standing on that little 4tile corridor or sleeping in the barracks. oh yeah soldiers really like to kill them in their barracks (mine had always walls with only barracks tiles) thats why I do not place any tile other than casino in casino and if I put some cameras I use ropes or plants to cover them as much as I can so my valets don't run in to them accidently.

It does seem a little complicated. I initially assumed that any non-casino tile would basically cause soldiers to go on a killing spree. But in my latest playthrough I actually had a corridor with traps that came off my casino and then back in. They never engaged any of the techs or valets. Maybe cameras have something to do with it? Potentially being on camera makes them think that a potential combatant is in the area and so they start fighting.

Many people seem to want cameras in their casino but they seem largely pointless in there. A) Your high level deception minions should have enough spotting power. B) It actually seems to me that seeing a non-casino area is often what triggers them to try disguising. So by trying to have cameras to stop disguises you are causing them to disguise more (Unfortunately if they are coming in the back entrance the 'corridor' for the helicopter seems to count as this).

[Ammikaameri]

Don't use autotag until after your defence line. If deception minions try to interact with soldiers they will get attacked.

From personal experience (on hard), soldiers only attack non deception minions on non casino tiles. So for example if one worker steps inside your deception minion kitchen to cook and the soldiers enter your kitchen, they will only kill the worker.

Also if you have too many bodybags in the casino it probably causes the soldiers to go on a killing spree. Its good to have a small casino corridor/corner before your actual corridor with a locked door so the tourists wont enter but the soldiers will not get a line of sight to any workers from the casino if the door happens to open.

[Lula O Honesto]

Originally posted by Ammikaameri:

Don't use autotag until after your defence line. If deception minions try to interact with soldiers they will get attacked.

From personal experience (on hard), soldiers only attack non deception minions on non casino tiles. So for example if one worker steps inside your deception minion kitchen to cook and the soldiers enter your kitchen, they will only kill the worker.

Also if you have too many bodybags in the casino it probably causes the soldiers to go on a killing spree. Its good to have a small casino corridor/corner before your actual corridor with a locked door so the tourists wont enter but the soldiers will not get a line of sight to any workers from the casino if the door happens to open.

Soldier's cannot be tagged for distraction, and social minions always run after looking to the soldiers, if they run to a non casino tile, they are going to be shot.

[Lula O Honesto]

If you use red alert before the soldiers arrive you can evacuate the cassino, every social and science minions will hide in the barracks

[Stabbity]

Originally posted by Marl Karx:

If you use red alert before the soldiers arrive you can evacuate the cassino, every social and science minions will hide in the barracks

This is an important point I didn't realize until dozens of hours into the game that they run to the barracks. Really cuts down on casualties if the alert is used just before the soldiers land.

[Cheesehead]

If soldiers see anything besides casino tiles, they will start shooting. If they see a body bag in their line of sight, they start shooting. Basically, they go from passive to guns blazing, and they won't stop.

You can test this easily. Start with a new base. build a corridor that enters your main base from the casino. Make it a simple winding corridor. If you see a valet wandering in that corridor, no matter what you set them at, they will be shot at as soon as the soldiers enter that corridor. If you set the corridor to distract, your valets will try to distract the soldier in the corridor and get blasted. If you don't have a door on this corridor, they will start shooting once they see the corridor tiles. Once they start shooting, they will not stop and change their minds.

One time I put a few corridor tiles in my casino just to place a camera. Once the soldiers seen the camera and tiles, they started shooting.

To make your casino effective, research the distract auto-tag. Set that tag for your casino. You want your distractions to start in the casino, not in your base, or you risk getting your valets and such killed. One the do gooders see anything besides your cover operation stuff, they tend to turn aggressive really fast.

[Prometheus]

I use dead end trap rooms connected to my casino all the time. Soldiers go in, run the traps, then go back into the casino and do not pick fights. The only explanation I can think of is non-casino tiles are basically kill zones for soldiers. I get that you can do some fun decorating by mixing tiles but it causes issues.

[Ammikaameri]

Originally posted by Marl Karx:

Soldier's cannot be tagged for distraction, and social minions always run after looking to the soldiers, if they run to a non casino tile, they are going to be shot.

I've never seen soldiers engage deception minions on non casino tiles. They will engage any other type of minion but not deception minions.

If you fail a distract on an investigator and the investigator initiates combat the soldiers will also engage all minions.

[FDR'sThinkTank]

Sometimes it feels like all Agents (Rogues, Saboteurs, Soldiers.. Investigators and Super Agents too) must be getting their gadgets and field training from a wildly inept Q.

https://youtu.be/YMeKfVq3uEw

Since the Soldiers already have this bad behavior of attacking Valets... the argument could be made they don't get dispatched to the island unless they have enough evidence to go in guns blazing. However, if they are going to "Fix" the problem, I would prefer they don't take a blanket approach to this. There is an opportunity that if you are going to tinker with Soldier behaviors that you should take the opportunity to distinguish the different Forces of Justice's style with varied responses!

For instance:
PATRIOT Soldiers might only begin engagement with Muscle Minions and Henchmen on the Casino Floor. They hold themselves to a high standard.
HAMMER Soldiers might begin engagement with ANYONE, including Tourists, on the Casino Floor. They go in dropping the HAMMER!
SMASH Soldiers might begin engagement in the current dynamic. That's a SMASH!
SABRE Soldiers might only begin engagement when they have left the Casino Floor. (Combat could still spill back out into the Casino after it starts, however.) It's Gentleman's Agreement!
ANVIL might begin engagement with all minions/Henchmen except Deception and Technical Minions. Firm but resolute in pursuit of Justice.

We really need to have some differentiation between the different Forces of Justice and A.I. Behaviors would be a really sweet way to do that.

[x_equals_speed]

Yeah, it's still the "traps aren't bad, it's the corridors they're in that are bad" issue. I dunno what training goes "If they're working at a card table they're okay, but if they go into a side room and have a bite to eat that means it's okay to kill them"

I didn't know red alert made social minions run to the barracks either. So that's why turning it on after soldiers got past my casino and became violent made all of my valets charge the soldiers and died. I did wonder why it was so useless and made people do the opposite of what you'd want.

[Angel666]

Soldiers comeing in killing unarmed Valets seems really silly at times i mean they should just knock them out with back gun and cuff them or something.

it is agaisnt rules kill unarmed ciivlians even if they work for evil companys mafia organisations.

i can understand them shooting in selfdefense when faced vs greater numbers minions unarmed mind who attack in numbers.

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