eg1 fans what you exactly dislike about eg2?

[o-trushin]

for me it is the only thing: the prison. I think that it is just do not worth to capture anything. the need to deplete both vitality and skill is too much.

[andrew.ch.]

It's easier to write what you didn't like about EG1. Because in EG2, a lot of things have been unnecessarily removed.

In EG1, dying of my minions (in large numbers) in traps was not right for me. This can be fixed by adding masked workarounds. Possibly a problem with fire extinguishers. The rest of the game (EG1) was perfect.

[o-trushin]

Originally posted by andrew.ch.:

It's easier to write what you didn't like about EG1. Because in EG2, a lot of things have been unnecessarily removed.

In EG1, dying of my minions (in large numbers) in traps was not right for me. This can be fixed by adding masked workarounds. Possibly a problem with fire extinguishers. The rest of the game (EG1) was perfect.

in camparison to eg2 the eg1 is quite boring and unreasonably long tbh

[Nightwolfnl]

I haven't fully formed my opinion yet (still on my first playthrough but have taken a small break to play something else before I get bored with playing a single game), but so far the things that I don't like (that I've experienced so far) is:

- Passive heat gain on the world map when not doing schemes in a region
- The rate of deterioration of items
- How easy it is for enemy agents to disable traps
- No more Endurance and Attention-stats

There's also the research that I have a small issue with. Not the fact that it's a tech tree, mind you, but I don't think some research nodes were given enough thought of. For example, research for new items that increases a stat beyond their default max, or free, extra broadcast. When you add all those up, it's not a lot of extra broadcast you get. Especially with the broadcast requirements lowered, they seem to be a little subpar.

Another thing that I dislike a bit so far is how fast stats are being drained by jobs. For me personally, it goes a bit hand in hand with the fact that some items can be used to be manned but isn't necessary at all and it feels like manning these are a filler. For example, the food counters in the mess hall or the care pods in the infirmary.

Lastly a lot of (if not all) decor items seem (or at least feel) to be not working, even though their description makes you feel otherwise.

And I think that's about it so far IIRC.

[Asphe]

I miss a few things from EG1.

The 'outdoor' area, outside the lair. I could make a large portion of the map configured to get rid of agents, tourists and so on.

Alternate entrances. This isn't really needed in EG2 since the casino and depot are linked to the lair and you can't choose where/when it's done. But I liked being able to 'shape' how my minions moved around (you don't need this as much in EG2 since gold teleports to and from the vault. In EG1, minions had to hand carry suitcases of the gold). Plus I could then make a special lair area just for traps. Doors in EG1 could be set to prevent minions from passing through.

The way schemes are done. As in you provide X number of minions and it's done. EG1 had a 'Risk' style where while you had to provide a minimum number of minions, you could also send more plus your own henchmen to increase the odds of success. AND survivors would come back. It wasn't just a single roll of the die either, each 'scheme' took a certain amount of time but if you were lucky (or not) you'd succeed.. but you could send more minions to better your odds. i.e. EG1 was more RTS-like, EG2 is more checkers-like.

The way traps are triggered in EG1 is via pressure plates or laser trip wires. So you could really make very elaborate traps setups. EG1's traps could also be linked to each other. So an agent stepping on a trigger would have a fan blow him down the corridor AND that fan would trigger the piranha tank at the same time. Plus you could place traps outside corridor tiles.

The loot in EG1 mattered a lot more. You wanted as many as you can as they affected a minion stats. (EG2's frozen yeti reminds me of EG1's indian totem... the curse and all ^_^)

EG1 had a far shorter campaign length too. There might have been a lot more 'loot' and stories but they were usually just a few missions at most. i.e. instead of one series of side-stories per agent... you'd just get one.

EG1's interactions seem more fun too. Your genius might cackle when you torture an agent (and nearby minions respond). A successful scheme generated a radio news bulletin. I'd also rate EG1's cutscenes a bit better than EG2's.

That said, EG2 is more polished and it seems less complex and challenging.... minion stats / furniture and many more are actually more in depth. i.e. the way capturing works in EG1 vs EG2. The new henchmen are interesting. The UI / control schemes are much better. Better VA. Just kinda wish it wasn't that simplified but it should make EG2 a better game for new players to the franchise/genre.

[Da' Vane]

A lot of the changes between EG and EG2 are redundant. In EG. the world map, and various AoIs were a side issue to Lair Building, and there were very few AoIs that were longer than two minutes.

In EG2, it feels like the World Map is the game, and the Lair is just something tacked on to justify calling it a sequel to EG.

EG2 is a casual mobile game that has been repurposed to try and be a strategy game. It has the "wait and return" mechanics of a mobile game, and the UI appears to be simplified for play on mobile devices.

EG2 has made a few improvements, but these are almost entirely cosmetic, rather than gameplay related.

Trying to compare EG and EG2 is like trying to compare a Limo to a donkey. They'll both get you to where you want to go, but are very different things indeed...

[SpellSword0]

Originally posted by andrew.ch.:

The rest of the game (EG1) was perfect.

Plotting was garbage, change my mind.

Anyway, to compare what I don't like about EG2 relative to EG1, I feel I need to break it down into two categories:


What EG2 dropped (didn't include):

-Base planning without commitment.
-Basic quality of life standards:
-Saving a camera position to a hotkey.
-Mass tagging a group of agents.
-Allowing you to name your save files.
-A mini map or radar that shows you hostile unit locations.
-The ability to set a prisoner free without jumping through hoops.
-Visual auras on things that have auras (I.E. body bags).
-Real time feedback on stats (there is no indication that a stat is changing without selecting a minion and watching the bar).
-Information about what anything in the game does (I.E. the stats a trap actually drains, the effects of any given loot piece).
-Minions working the control room objects actually meaning something.


What EG2 changed.

-The entire heat system.
-The functionality of investigators.
-The reason to capture and interrogate agents.
-The function of the distract tag.
-The locking out of digging space behind technologies.
-The functionality of super agents.


Of course there are a lot of good things to say about EG2 compared to EG1, but this isn't the thread for that. And EG1 is NOT without it's problems! EG1 is borderline unplayable without mods and exploits in my opinion. That said, I would say I like both games relatively the same, In that I think both are less than what they could be, but for very different reasons.

[Da' Vane]

Originally posted by S.S.:

Of course there are a lot of good things to say about EG2 compared to EG1, but this isn't the thread for that. And EG1 is NOT without it's problems! EG1 is borderline unplayable without mods and exploits in my opinion. That said, I would say I like both games relatively the same, In that I think both are less than what they could be, but for very different reasons.

Would you argue that EG is a suitable replacement for EG2, and visa versa?

I think it depends a LOT on what you enjoyed from one game to the other, and I happen to be in the category where there's a lot more that I enjoyed in EG removed from EG2, and there's very little that I enjoy to replace it.

[andrew.ch.]

Originally posted by o-trushin:

in camparison to eg2 the eg1 is quite boring and unreasonably long tbh

Well, this week I will play EG1 again and describe in more detail the differences between EG1 and EG2 that I am missing in the game (EG2).

[Da' Vane]

Originally posted by andrew.ch.:

Originally posted by o-trushin:

in camparison to eg2 the eg1 is quite boring and unreasonably long tbh

Well, this week I will play EG1 again and describe in more detail the differences between EG1 and EG2 that I am missing in the game (EG2).

Please do it without mods, as a big argument is that EG needs to be modded to be playable.

[SpellSword0]

Originally posted by Da' Vane:

Please do it without mods, as a big argument is that EG needs to be modded to be playable.

Modded and exploited. Can anyone who has played EG1 tell me with a straight face that they do not leave the game running for a few hours to plot out every region with workers? Or just mod away the plot requirements entirely?

Or that anyone playing EG1 uses traps effectively WITHOUT a freak trigger?

Originally posted by Da' Vane:

Would you argue that EG is a suitable replacement for EG2, and visa versa?

Ehh... To be honest, I would say EG2 is "almost" a suitable replacement, but just almost... But that was after two and a half campaigns, one being during the disastrous launch state. While the core of EG1 is far better than EG2, no argument here, the problems EG1 does have are SOO MAJOR to me! That they literally might as well render the game unplayable if you're not super careful to work around them!

Probably the biggest example of this is how agents will tunnel into a blocked off space in your base, which allows them to basically teleport where ever they please from there. Not an inherently bad idea, if you had total control over spaces being blocked or not... But you don't. Because of the way the vault in EG1 works with the gold piles, blocked off space can just appear! And there is near nothing you can do about it.

Soft locks and glitches aside, EG2 does not have these kinds of game breaking oversights as far as I'm aware. It is a far more stable game and that alone earns it a lot of points in my book.

If I had to describe it, I'd say EG1 has a good core with an unstable structure. While EG2 has a mediocre to bad core with a very stable structure. That's why EG1 needs mods to make the game just, not fall apart first off! And second off, to add all the good features EG2 actually decided to implement in the base game. But not even mods can fix all of EG1's problems.

The trap system, for instance, is hard coded in EG1 to the point where no mod can touch it. Which is a shame, because it's another point of sheer instability in that game. Traps in EG1 are no better, nay, WORSE than traps in EG2 if taken at face value! EG1's trap triggers are a joke and turn your base into Red Ivan's inferno playground. When they do work as intended, it's typically on your minions more than the actual agents.

The only way around this is to make use of the freak trigger exploit, which turn EG1's traps from garbage, into an absolute gem to use! The issue? Making use of freaks like this has a tenancy to crash the game...

EG1 was a great idea with a solid core gameplay loop that was left very unfinished. EG2 by contrast is a much more playable game, but with less of a gameplay loop than the first. I would argue then, that no matter how fun EG1's core loop was, it matters little when the game is a barely functional ticking time bomb.

What I've come to summarize from this is that both games are close to equally bad, for their own reasons. In the end, it's a shame EG2 wasn't just a fixed up EG1 because that would have been perfect... But there is no point in expecting EG2 to become EG1. So I'm trying to enjoy it on its own merits, and offer feedback within the constraints of its design.

Originally posted by Da' Vane:

I think it depends a LOT on what you enjoyed from one game to the other, and I happen to be in the category where there's a lot more that I enjoyed in EG removed from EG2, and there's very little that I enjoy to replace it.

That is 100% fair and I even feel like I can agree at times. But every time I look back to EG1, I'm deterred by the work I know I'll have to do to get the game in a playable state, or the exploits I'll have to employ to make some of the systems work, or the potential issues I'll run into that I know I'll have little hope of solving...

It's the only things that keep me from going back to EG1, as much as I really did love playing it for a time.

[Da' Vane]

Originally posted by S.S.:

Modded and exploited. Can anyone who has played EG1 tell me with a straight face that they do not leave the game running for a few hours to plot out every region with workers? Or just mod away the plot requirements entirely?

Or that anyone playing EG1 uses traps effectively WITHOUT a freak trigger?

I can say that with a straight face.

Originally posted by S.S.:

Ehh... To be honest, I would say EG2 is "almost" a suitable replacement, but just almost... But that was after two and a half campaigns, one being during the disastrous launch state. While the core of EG1 is far better than EG2, no argument here, the problems EG1 does have are SOO MAJOR to me! That they literally might as well render the game unplayable if you're not super careful to work around them!

Probably the biggest example of this is how agents will tunnel into a blocked off space in your base, which allows them to basically teleport where ever they please from there. Not an inherently bad idea, if you had total control over spaces being blocked or not... But you don't. Because of the way the vault in EG1 works with the gold piles, blocked off space can just appear! And there is near nothing you can do about it.

Soft locks and glitches aside, EG2 does not have these kinds of game breaking oversights as far as I'm aware. It is a far more stable game and that alone earns it a lot of points in my book.

If I had to describe it, I'd say EG1 has a good core with an unstable structure. While EG2 has a mediocre to bad core with a very stable structure. That's why EG1 needs mods to make the game just, not fall apart first off! And second off, to add all the good features EG2 actually decided to implement in the base game. But not even mods can fix all of EG1's problems.

The trap system, for instance, is hard coded in EG1 to the point where no mod can touch it. Which is a shame, because it's another point of sheer instability in that game. Traps in EG1 are no better, nay, WORSE than traps in EG2 if taken at face value! EG1's trap triggers are a joke and turn your base into Red Ivan's inferno playground. When they do work as intended, it's typically on your minions more than the actual agents.

The only way around this is to make use of the freak trigger exploit, which turn EG1's traps from garbage, into an absolute gem to use! The issue? Making use of freaks like this has a tenancy to crash the game...

EG1 was a great idea with a solid core gameplay loop that was left very unfinished. EG2 by contrast is a much more playable game, but with less of a gameplay loop than the first. I would argue then, that no matter how fun EG1's core loop was, it matters little when the game is a barely functional ticking time bomb.

What I've come to summarize from this is that both games are close to equally bad, for their own reasons. In the end, it's a shame EG2 wasn't just a fixed up EG1 because that would have been perfect... But there is no point in expecting EG2 to become EG1. So I'm trying to enjoy it on its own merits, and offer feedback within the constraints of its design.

The problem is a fixed up EG is what they advertised, and EG2 isn't a fixed up EG.

I understand issues with EG, but the main issue is that EG is no longer being worked on. If EG was currently being worked on like EG2, what would your position be then?

If the reason you are playing EG2 is because you are not playing EG, and the only reason you are not playing EG is because it's not in development, not on steam, and not got DLC, then essentially you are only playing EG2 BECAUSE it is in development, is on steam, and has got DLC. None of this is talking about playing EG2 for the game itself.

Originally posted by S.S.:

That is 100% fair and I even feel like I can agree at times. But every time I look back to EG1, I'm deterred by the work I know I'll have to do to get the game in a playable state, or the exploits I'll have to employ to make some of the systems work, or the potential issues I'll run into that I know I'll have little hope of solving...

It's the only things that keep me from going back to EG1, as much as I really did love playing it for a time.

It sounds to me, that like a lot of people were sold EG2 as a fixed EG, that you are playing EG2 only as a compromise solution. It's not a fixed EG, but it's what you've got, so you are going to play it anyway.

[SpellSword0]

Originally posted by Da' Vane:

I can say that with a straight face.

You have my respect and admiration then.

Originally posted by Da' Vane:

I understand issues with EG, but the main issue is that EG is no longer being worked on. If EG was currently being worked on like EG2, what would your position be then?

I don't think there would be an EG2 in that scenario. But lets say hypothetically there was, and EG1 was being further developed and worked on for some reason? And I had played enough EG2, launch and/or post 1.3 patch? Or, short of that, I had read the reviews and criticisms and watched gameplay footage without actually playing the game itself?

Yeah, I would pretty much ignore EG2 at that point. I'd stick not only to playing EG1 but also devote my time to discussing improvements and feedback on its forums instead.

Originally posted by S.S.:

If the reason you are playing EG2 is because you are not playing EG, and the only reason you are not playing EG is because it's not in development, not on steam, and not got DLC, then essentially you are only playing EG2 BECAUSE it is in development, is on steam, and has got DLC. None of this is talking about playing EG2 for the game itself.

It hurts to admit, but you're not entirely wrong. Though, I am playing EG2, and have played EG1, for the ideas and concepts behind the games. Of all the base building and management games out there, none are quite like the uniqueness of the Evil Genius series. But if there was a strikingly similar game out there that was clearly better? I'd jump ship right away, I have no loyalty to this franchise.

Originally posted by Da' Vane:

It sounds to me, that like a lot of people were sold EG2 as a fixed EG, that you are playing EG2 only as a compromise solution. It's not a fixed EG, but it's what you've got, so you are going to play it anyway.

Pretty much... :(

I just want the same thing for EG2 as I've wanted to EG1... I just want it to be better...

I don't think EG2 is even that terrible of game on its own though... I enjoyed one of my two full campaign playthroughs, and I'm hoping to enjoy at least one more. And then? I suppose that'll be it, really. I don't see much replay value in the game beyond that. It'll be just an okay game that I might have overpaid a bit for, and may have felt an obligation to play and argue about on a forum because I did pre order it... Then it'll probably just fade away and I'll never look back at it again...

Maybe it's foolish to hope that it could get better... That it could be more... Well, until I stop caring about the game, I'll just keep playing the fool.


This topic felt like it got out of hand, apologies op.

[YesMan]

Originally posted by S.S.:

Originally posted by Da' Vane:

Please do it without mods, as a big argument is that EG needs to be modded to be playable.

Modded and exploited. Can anyone who has played EG1 tell me with a straight face that they do not leave the game running for a few hours to plot out every region with workers? Or just mod away the plot requirements entirely?

Or that anyone playing EG1 uses traps effectively WITHOUT a freak trigger?

Actually...I don't know that worker plot stuff, and I don't use freak trigger either...and I did not use that community mod...
For traps I just built jet+smart gas loop with motion sensor...or deadly one directly built in freezer.

Back to main topic, not really a EG1 fan. But well, just drop some points that I think should be fixed, but not that easily just by fiddling values.
1. scheme as 100% successful checklist
Not much to explain, this is just repetitive, braindead, dumbed-down gameplay. While some fans or supporter said how good the game is, or how many playthroughs they replayed, there is minimal discussion&sharing about easter eggs found. Maybe they don't read any of the flavor texts either, just do braindead clicking on world map.

2. alternative entrance for agents on helipad (except for one map I know)
This is just simply a cheap, lazy, uninspired design to give enemies extra edge. Some of the enemies can already make direct teleport to your base. An un-removable alt. entrance just simply make some lair building aspect meaningless. Even if you extend cover op area to helipad, you can still do nothing, when the agents coming from alt. entrance fight with minions queuing for the chopper. Given how agents with Skill stats can easily disarm every traps, the alt. entrance on helipad is just a cheap design to add artificial difficulty.

3. UI
No explanation needed.

Something can be relatively fixed:
1. Items decay rate
Items are with natural decay rate, instead of decay per use. With hard cap of 300 minion capacity, technicians require salary after 1.3, minions need to use stairs to transverse through levels, this is just simply counter-productive to extend your lair, or build trap combos.
This is not just lack of play test, this is even lack of conceptual test.
2. Passive heat generation for criminal network
Rebellion just don't want you to work on your lair.

[Da' Vane]

Originally posted by YesMan:

Originally posted by S.S.:

Modded and exploited. Can anyone who has played EG1 tell me with a straight face that they do not leave the game running for a few hours to plot out every region with workers? Or just mod away the plot requirements entirely?

Or that anyone playing EG1 uses traps effectively WITHOUT a freak trigger?

Actually...I don't know that worker plot stuff, and I don't use freak trigger either...and I did not use that community mod...

I think that S.S. might be referring to a variation of the Maid "exploit", where you have workers plotting in every region to try and find everything while it's still safe to do so.

I'm not sure if this is an "exploit," though, as I really prefer to do the main objectives LAST, and thus plotting to find AoIs that I can do before capturing the Main is part of my style, and not an exploit to me.

I actually have fun building up my Control Room in EG, as I normally build just one control panel and then use that to generate funds to finish it before moving on. Sounds stupid, but given that I've usually bulked out may Lair with lockers by then, It's kind of fun to slowly increase how much income I am getting so I can build more control panels...

I enjoy watching my minions work, watching them bringing in the cash, and then taking it out. I'm in no rush, because in general, EG is all about NOT over extending yourself, knowing when to turtle up and let the heat cool down.

EG2 seems to have lost this charm, because it seems like a lot of the functions in the Lair are rather pointless, and are there simply to provide targets for AoJs. Almost half of the rooms in the Lair are there to restore Minion stats, for minions that don't really seem to DO anything other than wander around and restore stats...

[o-trushin]

okay, i always wanted to try some text editing features in steam.

Originally posted by Nightwolfnl:

- Passive heat gain on the world map when not doing schemes in a region

quite solvable with big screens. i have 5 and feel that they do not need to be manned too. not very affects you in the start because i usually just destroy lvl 1 networks and build them in the other region. But yes, it is quite irritating.

Originally posted by Nightwolfnl:

- The rate of deterioration of items

had an issue 2 times in a playthrough when all techs died. 20 usually enough. hard difficulty ofc.

Originally posted by Nightwolfnl:

-How easy it is for enemy agents to disable traps

that is irritating, no questions. but i never used traps that much 90 hitmans are never superfluous. also traps are much less fun imo(exept laser disco, my favourite)

Originally posted by Nightwolfnl:

- No more Endurance and Attention-stats

i am quite happy that they merged attention and smarts into skill. but endurance is a big loss, totally agreed

Originally posted by Nightwolfnl:

There's also the research that I have a small issue with. Not the fact that it's a tech tree, mind you, but I don't think some research nodes were given enough thought of. For example, research for new items that increases a stat beyond their default max, or free, extra broadcast. When you add all those up, it's not a lot of extra broadcast you get. Especially with the broadcast requirements lowered, they seem to be a little subpar.

broadcast researches are quite good in the beginning. and those items that increase stats are amazing. 50 vitality for guards, or extras marts for scientist is amazing. that quite solves the problem with jobs, you mentioned.