[BUG/Isssue] CONFIRMED: Why muscle minions use the wrong weapons, and how to fix it.

[Majere]

You might, like me, have wondered why you never saw your Mercenaries or Hitmen using all those expensive rifles, and often saw Martial Artists with clubs. Well I've figured it out, and it's extremely stupid.

WHAT HAPPENS:
Guards, when they complete their training, immediately do a task called 'getting a weapon'. Guards can only use clubs or pistols, so they will always equip one of those if available.

When a Guard then upgrades to a Mercenary, THEY KEEP THEIR WEAPON. Therefore they never 'get a weapon' again, and cannot get a rifle or heavy club.

If a Mercenary with a pistol then upgrades to a Martial Artist, they can no longer use their gun, and so they 'get a weapon' and will get a heavy club if they can find one. If they already had a basic club, they keep it and therefore will not upgrade.

IMPLICATIONS:
Any Guard who has a club is worthless for training. If they train up to Hitman, they're a ranged specialist with a club. If they train to Martial Artist, they're a melee minion with a second-rate weapon. A Guard with a pistol is OK to train as a Martial Artist, but a poor Merc and a terrible Hitman.

THE FIX:
The only way to get all your high-tier muscle minions correctly equipped is to sell/ turn off all club and pistol racks, then execute or otherwise dispose of all armed Guards. If a Guard sees a weapon they can use, they'll grab it, at which point they become useless for training. I recommend keeping a small force of Guards, no more than ten, for missions and upgrading who have no weapons, which at least means they'll run at intruders whilst better-trained minions shoot at them.

SUGGESTED DEV FIX: Simple enough- make Muscle minions unequip their weapons when they finish Mercenary training, and do 'get a weapon' again, prioritising higher-tier weapons where available.

Please make some noise on this topic to keep it current and get some dev attention, this is a very serious design flaw!

[Smokey Johnny]

and here we are 2 weeks later still with this "feature" in game. GJ

[The Tempted Man]

Автор сообщения: Smokey Johnny

and here we are 2 weeks later still with this "feature" in game. GJ

new patch comes out next week.

[SonofaGlitch]

Well thanks for the research OP. At least it explains the mechanics of this wonky behavior well. Though it does make the team at Rebellion look like complete incompetents for leaving in such a painfully obvious oversight.

[chonwaen]

I would like to see a "get best weapon check" after muscle minions either eat a meal or wake up from sleep. If this happens, it wouldn't be a horrible thing for workers to grab clubs, either. They might not be good fighters, but just about anybody can use a stick.

-"I actually prefer using a baseball bat over a gun for home defense. You don't have to be major league good, just pinata good." - James P. Connely

[FDR'sThinkTank]

Автор сообщения: chonwaen

I would like to see a "get best weapon check" after muscle minions either eat a meal or wake up from sleep. If this happens, it wouldn't be a horrible thing for workers to grab clubs, either. They might not be good fighters, but just about anybody can use a stick.

-"I actually prefer using a baseball bat over a gun for home defense. You don't have to be major league good, just pinata good." - James P. Connely

Or have research for those telescoping batons... Minions could stow those away, at least when they are carrying other things using their Multitool. OR.... make a research so the multitool can launch projectiles... maybe Bean Bags? On one hand it's non-lethal and low damage. On the other hand, Bean Bags are very 60's... Bean Bag Chairs! And in a pinch, they could use those little bean bags to play hacky-sack. Tubular, right? Maybe the Research unlocks a device for the armory that loads up bean bag shot into the multitool.... which could have limited ammo. Minions would only load it up during High Alert, perhaps, because being loaded with ammo would prevent them from using the multitool for anything else.

[SonofaGlitch]

Автор сообщения: chonwaen

I would like to see a "get best weapon check" after muscle minions either eat a meal or wake up from sleep. If this happens, it wouldn't be a horrible thing for workers to grab clubs, either. They might not be good fighters, but just about anybody can use a stick.

-"I actually prefer using a baseball bat over a gun for home defense. You don't have to be major league good, just pinata good." - James P. Connely

The thing is - workers SHOULD be able to get weapons.

In EG 1 workers, guards and mercs could all get weapons. Guards didn't even use pistols, those were for workers. Guards used rifles and mercs used machine guns. When you hit yellow alert, everyone armed themselves appropriately (and you didn't even need more than a couple racks except to cut down lines - there were no x weapons per rack).

They also used their weapons much more intelligently. 9/10 times in EG 2, even if armed with a ranged weapon, most muscle minions I've seen still get into a punching contest (even with kill tags). If a minion was armed in EG1 - they used their gun dang it.
I think this has to do with attack ranges. A unit armed with a ranged weapon is beginning attacks at a range not so far away as a unit armed with a melee attack. Enough that some movement between attack start and end and it probably gets pulled into melee by the enemy AI approaching them.

They need to buff the range that pistol armed minions begin their attacks (as well as agents armed with pistols), and further buff the range that SMG armed minions begin their attacks (and any unit with a ranged weapon that would be "stronger" than a pistol)

[FDR'sThinkTank]

Автор сообщения: SonofaGlitch

The thing is - workers SHOULD be able to get weapons.

In Evil Genius One, if a Minion was armed with a gun, it would cause ALL agents to pull out THEIR guns. The Agent guns would one hit kill minions, and you couldn't tie the agent up in melee combat to prevent them from using a gun. They could attack more rapidly with a gun than they could in melee combat too, I think...

It would be nice if they removed the RNG for Agents attacking minions who are merely trying to distract them. In fact, other than soldiers, no agent should physically resist being Distracted. MAYBE if they add a Lure function, they would have an RNG to resist that and start a fist fight. At most, the only downside to the Distraction strategy would be that higher level agents would have an RNG to restore their Resolve stat and keep searching. This would mean that you would need to rely more on Resolve lowering Cover Ops... but that's okay, because Distraction is for walking the enemy from your sensitive areas all the way back to the Entrance of the Cover Op. Even if they come back through, it's another whack at lowering Resolve and Skills.

Once all that functions, then giving the player the ability to arm basic minions with light weapons makes sense. It puts the player into the management role where playstyle and context are going to determine if they want their minions openly carrying and provoking agents on sight. Of course, we'd need Yellow Alert back too. You could have it so the yellow lights only flicker dimly in base areas autotagged for Capture/Kill. Once agents reach those yellow light areas, they will fist fight anyone who tries to distract them. If they enter when there is no yellow lights, they can still be walked out and back to the cover operation.

It's not simple, putting those basic minion weapons back in, if you want the game to reflect the A.I. programming necessary for it to function.

[Da' Vane]

Автор сообщения: Supply Lines

Автор сообщения: SonofaGlitch

The thing is - workers SHOULD be able to get weapons.

In Evil Genius One, if a Minion was armed with a gun, it would cause ALL agents to pull out THEIR guns. The Agent guns would one hit kill minions, and you couldn't tie the agent up in melee combat to prevent them from using a gun. They could attack more rapidly with a gun than they could in melee combat too, I think...

Not quite true - it would only cause ALL agents in a GROUP to pull out their guns, if they were attacked at range, or saw an attack at range. You could distract half a group, have them led around the back of the lair, and still have them draw a gun if they had recovered enough to do so, even if the agent spotting or being attacked was on the OTHER SIDE of the island.

Agent groups also shared heat in a similar way - once someone had seen something to gain heat, ALL AGENTS IN THAT GROUP gained that heat...

Firefights in EG were interesting, as you were going to have losses, but the agents and the minions generally used the old RTS rule of focused fire on who they could see, which was normally the first target they noticed. So, in general, you wanted a lot more minions than agents involved in any firefight.

If you were on Yellow Alert, then if you had any sort of minion mobility in place, then you'd often have enough minions around for a firefight, because all those conga lines and briefcase runners were often armed, so you could get more people into the fight...

[SonofaGlitch]

Автор сообщения: 76561198020975868

Автор сообщения: SonofaGlitch

The thing is - workers SHOULD be able to get weapons.

In Evil Genius One, if a Minion was armed with a gun, it would cause ALL agents to pull out THEIR guns. The Agent guns would one hit kill minions, and you couldn't tie the agent up in melee combat to prevent them from using a gun. They could attack more rapidly with a gun than they could in melee combat too, I think...

I'm currently replaying EG1 right now and that's half correct at best.

Yes, the issue with arming minions was that it raised heat and "anger" (a hidden stat) on agents so that it would often cause Investigators specifically to attack workers or other minions who were armed. It also freaked out tourists who began running around like chickens. But it didn't affect Burglars or Saboteurs, and as for Soldiers - you were probably arming yourself because of Soldiers.

Agent guns weren't one hit kills. They did a damage number depending on the weapon type and agent skill level. It often *resulted* in one hit kills on workers if it was a a "Good Soldier's" Rifle, but most guards and certainly higher level military minions could take a few hits. The issue was really that agent groups tended to stick together and fired fast, so they could very quickly shoot a minion multiple times, killing them just as quickly.

But you COULD tie them up with melee attacks. In fact this is one of the best ways to take them out - set one of the agent's to capture, not kill, and he'll get rushed for melee, then set the others to kill and after the one guy is knocked out the other minions will brawl with the agents due to proximity and your ranged minions will keep firing on them.

Автор сообщения: 76561198020975868

It would be nice if they removed the RNG for Agents attacking minions who are merely trying to distract them. In fact, other than soldiers, no agent should physically resist being Distracted. MAYBE if they add a Lure function, they would have an RNG to resist that and start a fist fight. At most, the only downside to the Distraction strategy would be that higher level agents would have an RNG to restore their Resolve stat and keep searching. This would mean that you would need to rely more on Resolve lowering Cover Ops... but that's okay, because Distraction is for walking the enemy from your sensitive areas all the way back to the Entrance of the Cover Op. Even if they come back through, it's another whack at lowering Resolve and Skills.

The way it worked in EG 1 was that "Disable" Attacks (which were the social minion attacks on non-health stats) made an agent "angrier" in a hidden stat or potentially a % chance roll (I'm not sure exactly, it's pretty vague). This way, sometimes after getting a bunch of valets brushing their shoulders and spin doctors snapping photos, they just start shooting.

But it was tied to level of the agent, and always a low chance anyway. The higher in level the agents were, the quicker they were to anger and start shooting things (anger also functioned on traps that did disable damage which is why they'd shoot at the triggers for the confusing pop-up traps everyone places in the base eventually, and if the agent couldn't open a door for long enough, which is why they'd shoot open doors eventually).

Автор сообщения: 76561198020975868

Once all that functions, then giving the player the ability to arm basic minions with light weapons makes sense. It puts the player into the management role where playstyle and context are going to determine if they want their minions openly carrying and provoking agents on sight. Of course, we'd need Yellow Alert back too. You could have it so the yellow lights only flicker dimly in base areas autotagged for Capture/Kill. Once agents reach those yellow light areas, they will fist fight anyone who tries to distract them. If they enter when there is no yellow lights, they can still be walked out and back to the cover operation.

It's not simple, putting those basic minion weapons back in, if you want the game to reflect the A.I. programming necessary for it to function.

I agree that if they were going to bring back the system of workers arming themselves, it would make sense to also bring back yellow alert. But then, I also want them to bring back yellow alert anyway. It was good to have a medium point between "things are fine" and "things are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ things are bad!"

[FDR'sThinkTank]

Автор сообщения: Da' Vane

Автор сообщения: Supply Lines

In Evil Genius One, if a Minion was armed with a gun, it would cause ALL agents to pull out THEIR guns. The Agent guns would one hit kill minions, and you couldn't tie the agent up in melee combat to prevent them from using a gun. They could attack more rapidly with a gun than they could in melee combat too, I think...

Not quite true - it would only cause ALL agents in a GROUP to pull out their guns, if they were attacked at range, or saw an attack at range. You could distract half a group, have them led around the back of the lair, and still have them draw a gun if they had recovered enough to do so, even if the agent spotting or being attacked was on the OTHER SIDE of the island.

Agent groups also shared heat in a similar way - once someone had seen something to gain heat, ALL AGENTS IN THAT GROUP gained that heat...

Firefights in EG were interesting, as you were going to have losses, but the agents and the minions generally used the old RTS rule of focused fire on who they could see, which was normally the first target they noticed. So, in general, you wanted a lot more minions than agents involved in any firefight.

If you were on Yellow Alert, then if you had any sort of minion mobility in place, then you'd often have enough minions around for a firefight, because all those conga lines and briefcase runners were often armed, so you could get more people into the fight...

Ah... the Briefcase Runners. I can still remember all the briefcases full of money left on the ground between the Vault and the docks after they would leave their task partway though. I miss that, a bit. Now you only see Gold on the ground when minions try to rob you on desertion.

[MrDeity]

Great post, Majere. Thanks for doing the research. I completely agree with your comments. This is frustrating and disappointing. I hope the developers fix it.

[Da' Vane]

Автор сообщения: Supply Lines

Ah... the Briefcase Runners. I can still remember all the briefcases full of money left on the ground between the Vault and the docks after they would leave their task partway though. I miss that, a bit. Now you only see Gold on the ground when minions try to rob you on desertion.

They'd go back to them after they were done though. Sure, it was easy for agents to interrupt your economy, but those carriers were also useful for designating patrol routes through your base. For the added security of having a conga line of minions going to and from my vault, ready to drop tools and take on agents who got in too deep, it was worth having a bit of lag between income and outgoings...

[Archgoose]

After having replaced my Pistol and Club racks once I got Rifles and Staffs, now whenever I see a Hitman with a Pistol or a Martial Artist with a Club I'm like, "That dude is OG. A seasoned veteran. Good on them." It's almost a kind of veneration. Whenever I see one go down I'm like, "There goes a legend." Honestly it might even be kind of sad when the last pistol/club falls.

[why are we here? just to suffer?]

Автор сообщения: Holyvision

There's a lot of posts on this try the search tool next time -- also there's a technical issues section for actual reports.

Yes, they don't change or upgrade weapons. It's just one of many oversights/cut-corners in the game.

Thats not a "cut corner"

that is

laziness/bad design/idiocy.

And you know what?

if {upgrade_return_check())
{
RunSwitchCaseUpgradeType(current_JobClass());
}

//runswitch

void RunSwitchCaseUpgradeType(typeJob jobClass)
{
if (jobClass)
{
//etc etc etc
}
else
{
return errorCode
}
}

in fact, this crappy spaghetti code I wrote is so unrobust that I wouldn't have designed it this way to begin with but it would get the job done if I felt like writing it all

for free

yuck, everyone needs to learn the basics of programming so devs cant get excuses anymore.

[why are we here? just to suffer?]

also lol @ void returning a value