[BUG/Isssue] CONFIRMED: Why muscle minions use the wrong weapons, and how to fix it.

[Majere]

You might, like me, have wondered why you never saw your Mercenaries or Hitmen using all those expensive rifles, and often saw Martial Artists with clubs. Well I've figured it out, and it's extremely stupid.

WHAT HAPPENS:
Guards, when they complete their training, immediately do a task called 'getting a weapon'. Guards can only use clubs or pistols, so they will always equip one of those if available.

When a Guard then upgrades to a Mercenary, THEY KEEP THEIR WEAPON. Therefore they never 'get a weapon' again, and cannot get a rifle or heavy club.

If a Mercenary with a pistol then upgrades to a Martial Artist, they can no longer use their gun, and so they 'get a weapon' and will get a heavy club if they can find one. If they already had a basic club, they keep it and therefore will not upgrade.

IMPLICATIONS:
Any Guard who has a club is worthless for training. If they train up to Hitman, they're a ranged specialist with a club. If they train to Martial Artist, they're a melee minion with a second-rate weapon. A Guard with a pistol is OK to train as a Martial Artist, but a poor Merc and a terrible Hitman.

THE FIX:
The only way to get all your high-tier muscle minions correctly equipped is to sell/ turn off all club and pistol racks, then execute or otherwise dispose of all armed Guards. If a Guard sees a weapon they can use, they'll grab it, at which point they become useless for training. I recommend keeping a small force of Guards, no more than ten, for missions and upgrading who have no weapons, which at least means they'll run at intruders whilst better-trained minions shoot at them.

SUGGESTED DEV FIX: Simple enough- make Muscle minions unequip their weapons when they finish Mercenary training, and do 'get a weapon' again, prioritising higher-tier weapons where available.

Please make some noise on this topic to keep it current and get some dev attention, this is a very serious design flaw!

[Roberto]

I dunno my training room was always filled with weapons they dropped after upgrading. I never had a problem with them using higher tier weapons when they could.

[Majere]

Originally posted by Roberto:

I dunno my training room was always filled with weapons they dropped after upgrading. I never had a problem with them using higher tier weapons when they could.

You might want to check that. I suspect your training room was full of dropped pistols from minions training into MAs, but I'd be _very_ surprised to see any clubs. I've sat there and watched armed Guards train and they never go back to the 'getting a weapon' job when they finish.

[Holyvision]

There's a lot of posts on this try the search tool next time -- also there's a technical issues section for actual reports.

Yes, they don't change or upgrade weapons. It's just one of many oversights/cut-corners in the game.

[Majere]

Originally posted by Holyvision:

There's a lot of posts on this try the search tool next time -- also there's a technical issues section for actual reports.

Yes, they don't change or upgrade weapons. It's just one of many oversights/cut-corners in the game.

I did search. One of the topics is mine, because no-one had actually answered what was happening. Once I'd figured it out, I posted it here for that exact reason, and because it seems the devs are actually reading the forum now.

It's not strictly technical- you could argue that this is intentional design, and it's not a 'bug' in the classical sense. But it is a design flaw.

[Roberto]

It was more of once you've upgraded to a higher minion the only reason to keep weaker ones around was for schemes. Yeah they cost more but frankly money is never an issue really. Guards weren't there to guard things anymore, just to look nice and see the world.

[Mortis Axiom]

Originally posted by Majere:

When a Guard then upgrades to a Mercenary, THEY KEEP THEIR WEAPON. Therefore they never 'get a weapon' again, and cannot get a rifle or heavy club.

If a Mercenary with a pistol then upgrades to a Martial Artist, they can no longer use their gun, and so they 'get a weapon' and will get a heavy club if they can find one. If they already had a basic club, they keep it and therefore will not upgrade.

This is incredibly disappointing and also makes complete sense. One more thing that should be addressed in a quality of life update soon.

[cipco2]

This is the kind of analysis that makes improvement a lot easier.

[CdnBacon]

Hell, the minions don't even use ranged attacks properly when they do have them. They'll just charge into melee and fist the enemy if there's an animation slot around the enemy to do so. Only when you already have a layer of minions on a target, will the back line maybe shoot. The entire combat system is flawed/broken and needs changing.

[aseinsha]

no one will pick up a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ rifle, and ive had rifles for 5 hours of game time now... T_T either they dont carry anything or its pistol.. the 2nd tier melee weapon doesnt seem to have this issue... this is quite annoying...

[SteveUK]

I have yet to see any of my Mercs/Hitmen use a rifle..very annoying. UPDATE: By limiting available weapons they are using rifles now. Not ideal but at least it does work.

[Ahoge-dono]

I put my gun rack and two handed weapon racks next to their training area on 3x6 armory tiles IN the training room. So once they become Mercs or Martial Artist they immediately grab a better weapon.

[SteveUK]

Originally posted by CallMeCrisco:

I put my gun rack and two handed weapon racks next to their training area on 3x6 armory tiles IN the training room. So once they become Mercs or Martial Artist they immediately grab a better weapon.

Good idea, I will try this thanks.

[Death2Gnomes]

Didnt the devs acknowledge this already? IDK I feel like they should say something soon,

[FDR'sThinkTank]

We should be able to straight up tell a minion to unequip whatever weapon they are holding. This way we can make them change to not only the advanced versions of weapons as they become able to use them, but also change between weapon subtypes for different situations. Minions could then choose weapons based on current tag tasks. This would also allow for more depth in how minions... or at least Muscle Minions, get equipped and what they could potentially be equipped with.

I've mentioned wanting (poisoned) bladed weapons and flame weapons in another thread... these weapons would be DoT applying versions of Stun and Studded weapons. However, you could also have "entertaining" weapons as well. These would improve a guards ability to distract on the Casino floor by making them look like performers.

I still think Stun (or capture focused weapons) should do resolve damage instead of split "skill" damage since the Lethal does Skill damage too... there is no difference in the order it happens. Stun weapons would be better for capture if they lowered the targets resolve.

However, this makes the Cover Operation more important for lowering the skill of Agents. In this way, "entertaining" weapons could give guards a legitimate appearance on the Cover Operation floor. These weapons would have an appearance that matches the theme of the cover operation. If the guard is forced into combat, the entertaining weapon is better than being unarmed, but not as effective as more dedicated weapons.

[Wintermist]

Yeah I noticed this too and started to only build Rifles and nothing else. I research the others but don't build them. Rifles for everyone (that can use 'em) :D