What do you think of the Human classes?

[Sines]

So, we've had a decent amount of talk about the Monsters, but the new human classes are getting left out. So, time to talk about them.

The Wrangler is definitely a gimmick class. So it's kind of hard to judge on that basis. I understand it later can get a piece of equipment that lets it affect humans, which would make it less gimmicky, but I find it's support options to be underwhelming. I rarely feel the need to buff all my units with Mind/Attack Up, at the cost of removing the other. Especially since the very generally useful Daodrenner can apply Mind Up right at the start of a fight, and the early recruited Vangal can do the same. Charm is nice, of course, and Hunt giving a flat 50% damage boost while keeping it a Regular Attack is very nice. I suspect that those two things with the ability to affect humans will have to carry the class though, with the rest just being nice tools.

Of course, I'm sure you can pull all sorts of interesting shenanegins with the ability to swap back-benchers into the party, but that's even more gimmick.

Beastmaster is more interesting. However, I cannot help but realize that the bulk of the Pet Effects are just "Heal/Hurt Allies/Enemies next to you at end of turn". It's a lot less interesting because of that. Ditto with the attacks the pets make, though those are certainly more versatile. I don't feel there are any pet 'killer apps' like the Gadgeteer has though. The Dismiss Options are all very nice, and being able to give a physical character a Sorcerer-style attack is nice. And the Healing options are nice variety too.

In the end, the class feels like a more well-balanced Gadgeteer. There's no giving allies Mana, no AoE Haste or Sleep, but there's not a bunch of options I almost never use either. Swarm is a hell of a drug though.

Samurai is the only new class that isn't gimmicky, and... I'm not sure why it's here. It's not a bad class, but it just feels like a variant of Templar. A physical class, that likes to have some Mind without being a Hybrid, that has a big finisher attack and a set of utilities. Heck, they even both get a passive that makes debuffs not so bad (It's stretching a little bit, but not completely). It does have it's own identity of risk/reward, but it feels like it's a bit too dependent on it's Unbreakable Spirit passive to make it all work together. The inability to use two-handed weapons, or weapons that also boost Mind don't help.

I suspect this class might be better under more specific circumstances, compared to the always useful Templar kit. Since it's attacks always target Defense, something like Spirit Sword could be great utility for many mages. And Overreach could be quite useful for Hallowed Mind. Which makes it a great shame that this class is entered into by two seperate parts (admittedly, not that seperate) of the physical tree.

That being said, I haven't put much thought into how Overreach, Adrenaline and Finisher are all Regular Attacks. My Samurai has largely been neglected in this playthrough in favor of monsters, so I haven't put TOO much thought into how to make good use of him. Fortunately, the Samurai is a generic, so I can force-feed him a lot of AP if I need to to try out something new.

[jinnro195]

Let me just preface this by saying I am in no way trying to be combative or belittle you in any sort of way, but I feel anyone saying any class is "gimmicky" is missing the larger picture. Most, if not all, of the classes in the game feature something that is mildly counterproductive to a Primary class but shines as part of a Secondary or as a chosen passive. Players tend to look at the classes only as Primary's, and overlook the potential as a Secondary.

Also started typing this out and realized I should probably break this into pieces, so please bear with me on the Beastmaster and Samurai posts.

The Wrangler is actually the heart of the "Monsters" part of this DLC, as [Tame] will be the main route to obtain monsters as part of your party as well as building up your Beastmaster. Like most everything else, they do not shine well in the early game. As a combat class, their primary role is twofold: Monster support, and Monster counter. If your enemy team is all human and you're not using Monsters, they have little purpose.

[Hunt] and [Tame] are self explanatory, though it should be noted that they are unaffected by Tyrant's Band. [Calm] and [Frenzy!] have various tactical uses, including HP/MP generation via the passives [Equilibrium] and [Serenity], respectively. [Beast Whisperer] is just OP, even without being able to use it on humans. Mind-control and Charm? Hellz Yeah. [Skirmish] leaves a little to be desired, but an additional movement at the end of turn can have huge tactical payoffs. [Owner's Pride] is.... Speed is key. The other skills i haven't mentioned, as well as the counter, are pretty decent but are slightly more situational than the previously mentioned skills.

My suggested story hero for this class would be Katja, as [Owner's pride] works alongside her passive and her story class has access to Guns, giving range to a few Wrangler skills. She also has increased crit chance, giving her a bit more potential in damage output.

[jinnro195]

Now onto the Beastmaster.

A lot of people compare the Beastmaster to Gadgeteer, and it's understandable why. Both skillsets are the epitome of "Jack of all Trades" and both have unique ways of building up their skill trees. However, the Gadgeteer is more of a support role than damage, and vice versa for the Beastmaster.

As far as pet summons go, you have a variety of options including buffs, debuffs, healing, elemental damage(MND), ATK damage, hybrid damage, AoE, and displacement, though the main purpose of the skillset is damage.

The pet effects are pretty great as well. Yeah, sure, they're basically all chip damage/heal, but that's better than nothing at all. You've also got 3x3 tile coverage via Bulldrake, Bleed/Poison from Rakkerjak/Arpia, and a random pet summon via Niwot to help fuel Dismiss builds.

Speaking of... The dismisses boil down to damage, heal, revive, and buff, and get more powerful depending on how many pets you have out.
Personally, [Dismiss - Swarm] is hands down better than the entirety of the Sorcerer's skillset, if only for the reason that the damage output is consistent and controllable.
[Dismiss - Burrow] is a displacement skill that increases range, is Earth element, and benefits from [Elemental Mastery]. It's also useful in closing the gap with your slower, less mobile melee fighters.
[Dismiss - Glomp] is just stupid useful at times, regardless of your heroes MND stat.
[Dismiss - Attack/Heal] are nice, but most people prefer to use Swarm/Glomp
And finally [Dismiss - Empower].... Oh boy, let me tell you this one was broken. If you're buff-stacking, after a certain point you are almost guaranteed to get both Focus and Hallowed Mind. During testing, Boon was also in the buff pool (hence why it was broken).

[Rampart] is a game changer for movement control, as Traps were the only thing previously to halt enemy movement. [Serenity] is a great mana engine even without dismissing. There are quite a few tricks to be had with buff/debuff cycling on a hero. The counter is okay, although extremely random. Without Beastmaster, there's no way to dismiss the pets and after getting attacked 3 times it doesn't do anything. That said, it's fantastic for heroes that rely more on dismissing than summoning.

Suggested story heroes are Reiner, Yates, and Kairu. Reiner's class had some pretty stupidly broken things before, but 2 new weapons and the Beastmaster skillset make him a buff MACHINE. Yates' passives from Anatomist put him as one of the best Glomper's. Kairu's new bonus passive, along with [Pounce], make him a very malleable Beastmaster. There are a few different ways to build him solely on the BM skillset.

[DarkeLourd]

My take on Wrangler is that it's a class that you learn on a few characters but only equip when you're either looking to capture something or looking to field several monster units, until you get the ring. The counter is neat for Warmages though, and Skirmish isn't bad for rogue types.

Beastmasters are a little underwhelming, but calling them "less powerful Gadgeteers" wouldn't be totally inaccurate. None of its skills are highly impactful besides the revive and maybe Empower if you get lucky but it does make a pretty solid nuisance and meatshield. Give it Templar or Reaver skills and Sturdy Grip for a bit of oomph and you have a solid unit, or just give Rampart to one of those classes instead.

Samurai, though, have the best skillset of the three. Late-game, the debuffs are essentially optional. Keep them around if you like the risk/reward aspect of Meditate and Unbreakable Spirit (ESPECIALLY if you're using a ranged weapon), otherwise use the Arbiter heavy armor set or the Amethyst Earring. Crit builds turn Overreach into Righteous Blade without the Holy damage and Finisher into a Righteous Blade against demons but to everything that didn't stack Def. Adrenaline is a great Hallowed Mind enabler. And Spirit Bow just makes everything else better. It's also a solid choice to pair with Marked's stat growth if you don't like how Warmage can't use Marked's skills. Oh and Razor Wind goes great on basically any melee class. Just don't run Samurai as your primary class after you've learned the skills unless maybe you want to do the melee crit build but hate how frail Werewolves are.

[jinnro195]

And last but not least the Samurai. This will probably be the most extensive breakdown so far, as this class is the one I did the most testing with during that phase. First of all, as a primary class it is fairly decent. They can't swim, their proficiencies are limited, their stat growth is fairly balanced for an ATK based character but nothing special, and their passives recommend a certain playstyle to make them more effective. Although the latter is common for a lot of classes, in the case of the Samurai the "recommended" strategy requires a higher level of risk (akin to Kyrie's [Avenger]). Also note the Mastery Bonus includes a +2% Crit Chance.

The passives are a mixed bag. [Razor Wind] gives melee characters some much needed range for a cheap cost. Knight, Duelist, Reaver, and Fellblade all can do pretty fun things with this passive. [Unbreakable Spirit] is a bit different though. You're required to get debuffed in order for it to work, and the way it works means hybrids will get the maximum benefit. On the opposite end of the spectrum, this passive lets you employ a few wonky strategies that are really fun. While most people debuff-stack enemies, you can debuff-stack yourself and then spread them via [Miasma] or the mace Contagion.

The skillset is extremely versatile and possibly my favorite in the game. As a secondary class, it's quite literally S-tier. You could build a team of melee, ranged, caster, and support heroes all using Samurai and still have them be somewhat unique. To keep the following breakdown short, anything listed as "counts as a regular attack" will trigger [Leech Mana/Life], [Hallowed Mind], Blood Staff/Axe/Axe+, can crit, and can apply the weapons debuffs and element. All skills applying debuffs can also be used as [Equilibrium]/[Serenity] tricks or to fuel [Unbreakable Spirit], and are affected by [Permanence] and [Resilience].

[Overreach] is low cost, range:Weapon, 1.2x ATK, and counts as a regular attack. DEFdown applied to caster.
[Spirit Bow] is low cost, range 1-5, .5x MND, and inflicts DEF/RES down on the enemy.
[Meditate] is exceptionally low cost, cleanses all debuffs, and heals .6x MND for each debuff removed. Also sets EVA to 0 for 1 turn. **SPELL**
[Wind Spirit] is low cost, .35x ATK, and applies Cripple in an area around the character.
[Restless Spirit] is low cost, range 1, .7x ATK, ignores DEF, and applies RESdown to caster.
[Adrenaline] is low cost, range:Weapon, .5x ATK, gives you a turn 50% quicker, counts as a regular attack, and applies Bleed to caster.
[Finisher] is high cost, range:Weapon, 2.4x ATK, counts as a regular attack, and applies ATKdown to caster.
[Spirit Sword] is moderate cost, range 1, 2.6x MND, and applies MNDdown to caster.

While the above skills might scream ATK-based melee or ranged heroes, first consider their utility on casters. [Meditate] is an exceptionally powerful spell for a really low cost, meaning you can use it with Doublecast1/2 and it's a heal/cleanse combo. All of your casters will benefit from [Spirit Bow/Sword] as they are MND vs DEF, rather than the usual vsRES casters are used to having. [Wind Spirit] is a niche caster spell, best utilized on a Plague Doctor for the [Permanence] synergy. Druid, Princess, Plague Doctor, and even Alchemystic can all be extremely fun to use with Samurai as a secondary while feeling different enough from each other. Any MP generating passive works well as usual, but [Economy] drops the cost of [Spirit Sword] from 14mp to 10, meaning you can spam it every turn if necessary. Other more "fighter" based passives pair well with the caster-samurai as well, such as [Execute] and [Hallowed Mind].

As for ATK-based samurai, well they are the cream of the crop. As stated above, most of their skills count as a regular attack, and quite a few of them have range. During testing, this resulted in an incredibly powerful Ranger, and a completely broken Lord. As you mentioned in your post, [Hallowed Mind] is a great passive to utilize alongside this skillset, and there is a Ranger build (of my design) featured in one of the hunts using that passive. It makes [Finisher] basically a OHKO. Also in that hunt is another build that is (incredibly) toned down, a Reaver/Samurai. The optimized version of that build is Lord/Samurai with [Blood Magic], [Razor Wind], and [Mystic Shield] along with a Blood Axe+, and it just obliterates everything in its path that doesn't have Pektite levels of RES. Now I know what you might be saying: "Jinn, why on God's green earth would I want [Blood Magic] on an ATK hero?" Because. Because we now have the Everbloom, a perma-renew. And the skillset for the most part triggers [Leech Life], which coupled with the latter almost completely replenish the casting cost. Blood Staff/Axe/Axe+ are just stupid because they regen all the damage dealt. ALL OF IT. Throw on Mystic Shield for craps and giggles just because, or run a different counter. It doesn't matter. Blood Axe+ laughs at your worry.

As far as suggested story heroes go, you really can't go wrong. Every story hero has some way to utilize the Samurai skillset, passives, or counter. Kyrie or Yates with a Holy/Dark weapon and [Penumbral Mastery], Kairu as a Ranger/Samurai with [Stampede] can do more damage than a generic with [Hallowed Mind] even without shoes, Anadine can use the debuffs from Samurai to trigger [Equilibrium] at a more consistent/controlled rate, etc. There are countless powerful builds simply from using this class as a secondary.

[crate]

Originally posted by DarkeLourd:

Beastmasters are a little underwhelming, but calling them "less powerful Gadgeteers" wouldn't be totally inaccurate. None of its skills are highly impactful besides the revive and maybe Empower if you get lucky but it does make a pretty solid nuisance and meatshield. Give it Templar or Reaver skills and Sturdy Grip for a bit of oomph and you have a solid unit, or just give Rampart to one of those classes instead.

Beastmaster is a pretty good class for Kyrie because the Ercinee summon is better than holy/dark bolt most of the time, since it can get side/back attacks. There's not a lot of other holy/dark attacks that scale on ATK to pick from to use Penumbral Mastery unless you want to use Templar (but Righteous Blade is 24 MP instead of 8, so that's a different kind of build altogether).

[Yian Yan]

Originally posted by jinnro195:

And last but not least the Samurai....

As far as suggested story heroes go, you really can't go wrong. Every story hero has some way to utilize the Samurai skillset, passives, or counter. Kyrie or Yates with a Holy/Dark weapon and [Penumbral Mastery], Kairu as a Ranger/Samurai with [Stampede] can do more damage than a generic with [Hallowed Mind] even without shoes, Anadine can use the debuffs from Samurai to trigger [Equilibrium] at a more consistent/controlled rate, etc. There are countless powerful builds simply from using this class as a secondary.

I like Katja as a Bounty Hunter/Samurai. Impetus + Adrenaline + Blood Mark with the range of a gun. Builds up her speed like crazy and lets her land a Blood Mark improved Finisher in no time from a mile away.

[Mechalibur]

Originally posted by Yian Yan:

Originally posted by jinnro195:

And last but not least the Samurai....

As far as suggested story heroes go, you really can't go wrong. Every story hero has some way to utilize the Samurai skillset, passives, or counter. Kyrie or Yates with a Holy/Dark weapon and [Penumbral Mastery], Kairu as a Ranger/Samurai with [Stampede] can do more damage than a generic with [Hallowed Mind] even without shoes, Anadine can use the debuffs from Samurai to trigger [Equilibrium] at a more consistent/controlled rate, etc. There are countless powerful builds simply from using this class as a secondary.

I like Katja as a Bounty Hunter/Samurai. Impetus + Adrenaline + Blood Mark with the range of a gun. Builds up her speed like crazy and lets her land a Blood Mark improved Finisher in no time from a mile away.

Huh, that's probably the most viable case for Blood Mark I've ever seen. Interesting.

[pristine20]

Originally posted by Yian Yan:

Originally posted by jinnro195:

And last but not least the Samurai....

As far as suggested story heroes go, you really can't go wrong. Every story hero has some way to utilize the Samurai skillset, passives, or counter. Kyrie or Yates with a Holy/Dark weapon and [Penumbral Mastery], Kairu as a Ranger/Samurai with [Stampede] can do more damage than a generic with [Hallowed Mind] even without shoes, Anadine can use the debuffs from Samurai to trigger [Equilibrium] at a more consistent/controlled rate, etc. There are countless powerful builds simply from using this class as a secondary.

I like Katja as a Bounty Hunter/Samurai. Impetus + Adrenaline + Blood Mark with the range of a gun. Builds up her speed like crazy and lets her land a Blood Mark improved Finisher in no time from a mile away.

this is genius

[Soul4hdwn]

yeah thats a nice combo, but shame things die too fast unless hardmode/stat-ups or a boss.

[pristine20]

Originally posted by Soul4hdwn:

yeah thats a nice combo, but shame things die too fast unless hardmode/stat-ups or a boss.

That's the point of hardmode right?

[Soul4hdwn]

Originally posted by pristine20:

That's the point of hardmode right?

yes, sorry =p

[Doom_Cookies]

Something I find worth mentioning about Adrenaline from Samurai in particular is that it also effectively increases that units MP generation in combat.

I'm using a Vessel/Samurai w/ either a Rapier or the lightning Crossbow (depending on map) that has Elemental Mastery and Leech Mana from Warmage. Using Adrenaline causes Leech Mana to cover the 4 MP cost (even using the Crossbow, the weaker of the two weapons in ATK), activates Hallowed Mind for the next turn, and causes the next turn to come 50% quicker, all at the low cost of a few turns of Bleed. And since turns come quicker, resulting in more turns overall in a battle, the overall MP gain from the natural MP generation per turn increases as well - since Adrenaline decreases turn wait by 50%, you gain roughly half your natural MP generation in benefit every time you use it. This means that, in effect, Adrenaline grants 5 MP per use, more if you have increased MP generation per turn through equipment or passives.

Using Adrenaline on turns that I need to activate Hallowed Mind, my Vessel ends up casting Hallowed Mind-buffed summons every 1.5 natural turns they'd otherwise have.

I was really struggling to find a secondary class skill set for Vessel until I really sat down and considered Samurai, and it's really just Adrenaline alone that drew me to using Samurai. It was very well worth it. And it turned out that the other Samurai abilities also found occasional use. Overreach can be useful just for the slight addition to damage if it lets me kill something, Spirit Bow and Wind Spirit are amazing offensive utility, and both Finisher and Spirit Sword can be very strong considering Vessel is hybrid, with Spirit Sword also enforcing physical damage for targets resistant to elements. Pretty much the only Samurai abilities I never used on my Vessel are Restless Spirit (for lack of Hallowed Mind trigger and lack of utility benefit for someone who can just target RES) and Meditate (Vessel needs to be played aggressively, and taking a turn purely for defensive purposes really hinders its offensive capability - I let other units handle that).

Edit: Confused some effects of Overpower and Restless Spirit. Fixed.

[Soul4hdwn]

most builds are like that too... there's "that one" thing in another class that is making stuff shine as a combo.

except for the generalist stuff like fellblade, marked, beastmaster i guess and while marked (if leveled purely) has overall more hybrid damage, it has less defense than a warmage (and tiny bit less speed) . i suppose thats a different topic though =p

[A]

I think the new classes enable some really intense combos.
Haven't really played with Beastmaster yet, but I'm using Wrangler and Samurai extensively.
I've been leaning hard on using monsters in my party, so having Wrangling as a secondary class using [Attack!] all the time is really fun. Currently using 4 vangals with Sylvan-Firedrake. I just position them and spam [Stunning Strike] to lock opponents, and then use the wrangler to dish some mad damage. This kind of setup is incredibly strong once you get Katja and the Tyrant band. Katja allows for some mad spam, and the tyrant band gives you a lot of extra options
[Owner's pride] is also really strong with Kyrie. [Avenger] + [Owner's Pride] guarantees you won't lose most of the fight (extra easy for me since the vangals have fortitude).
You can also cheese really hard with the Phoenix monster and the Ancient Locket to ramp up party speed.
Samurai is also really good. There's a mace later in the game that delays the turn of the enemies on a regular attack. Combo that with [Adrenaline] and you can lock down a character or 2.
[Razor Wind] also allows for some fun stuff, like "Force pushing" people from far away and stuff.

[Auspice]

Been using Wrangler quite a bit. It's a good class.

Wrangler has good stat growths and fairly good gear options. Being able to use bows lets weapon-range subclasses do work. Since Wrangler is mana-hungry, running something like Mercenary is actually pretty good. You can also sub Beastmaster in certain teamcomps, particularly if you're using Heel to pull allied monsters near to you.

In addition to regular monsters, allied Kawas (summoned by Kawa monsters on kill) and Cadavers (from Reanimate) are also considered monsters. Use Heel to pull them in, Frenzy to buff their attack and Attack! to really mess up the enemy team. If you're running a monster stampede you can consider using Bulwark (not necessarily on the Wrangler, just in general) to limit the enemy's ability to run away. Kawa is one of the strongest monsters with a Wrangler on his team.

Calm/Frenzy are obviously good, but kind of expensive. It also means you probably want to run one type of monster (either casters or fighters) rather than a diverse group. Have your humans pick up the slack.

Heel is basically spending your action for (monster) mobility. It's mostly good for monsters that can't get to where your Wrangler can, so giving him high jump and fast movement (the class has Skirmish, so that's not hard) to let him pull Cadavers in. You can also use it to quickly get 2+ adjacency bonus for your Bzzerk to wreck face (move close, Heel, then Skirmish to an adjacent square)

Quicken Monster is a 10MP quicken and monsters are really freaking powerful. With Initiative you can get any monster moving on turn 1. It's pretty obvious and self-explanatory how good this is.

Attack! is hard to set up in mixed parties and Wrangler is mana-hungry enough that it sees limited use. If you've got a kawa or cadaver stampede it will obviously get value and you're probably using Heel anyway to pull them around since they can't equip 4 sets of boots like your monsters can.

Wrangler passives are quite good. Skirmish is really nice -- it's one of those things that you don't really feel would be great but it gets good value every battle. Obviously going fast whenever monsters get a kill is insane. Since it's fueled by death, you can also run a Wrangler with the Kyrie Death Engine -- run a Pektite and Ercinee, kamikaze the Ercinee at the enemy, sacrifice the Pektite to bring the Ercinee back to full health and kamikaze again. With Quicken Monster you can speed the process up considerably. With Kyrie as Wrangler with Avenger you can make her into a doubly-unstoppable monster.