The 25th Ward: The Silver Case

The 25th Ward: The Silver Case

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[SPOILERS] Just finished Digital Man, all kinds of questions now
Finished The Silver Case recently. The 25th Ward is definitely jarring in comparison, and seems to go all-in with mysterious talk that purposely obfuscates what is really happening. The Silver Case at least felt like a sequence of concrete events, with the supernatural stuff being explicitly portrayed differently.

- Was Shiroyabu literally leaving the bodies of the hitmen, and getting horny, next to the ATM?

- What is the death-filing technique? His wig was actually a bomb or something?

- When did Sumio Kodai get out of prison and get reinstated as a detective?

- When did Ayame get out of prison and start working & paying rent again? Or was that scene with her still in prison?

- Kurumizawa seems like a more advanced version of Kamui? Sumio Kodai had to kill Shiroyabu because he was turning into the next Kurumizawa?
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Showing 1-15 of 47 comments
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Deep_wolf Apr 1, 2018 @ 3:14am 
I suggest you to believe the net :Silver_Naka:
Arale//Zero Apr 1, 2018 @ 10:48am 
1) Probably. But it was a different ATM each time.

2) It's not quite clear what it is, but it's some form of awakening that makes you lose your hair. Ryu Munakata is listed as a "Death-filing Special Agent" in TSC's manual, and there's a random picture of Kamui being bald in TSC, so I think that death-filing is relevant to the first game too.

3) Play Flower, Sun, and Rain to... sort of... find out. (Flower, Sun, and Rain was released between and takes place between TSC and 25W.)

4) I think Ayame is dead.

5) Perhaps...
XcessiveNinja17 Apr 1, 2018 @ 3:14pm 
Originally posted by Arale//Zero:
3) Play Flower, Sun, and Rain to... sort of... find out. (Flower, Sun, and Rain was released between and takes place between TSC and 25W.)

I tried to read spoilers about FSR because getting a Nintendo DS is not viable for me at this time (I have too many devices right now). Didn't read that Sumio Kodai was out of prison - nor that his record was rehabilitated so that Sumio Mondo could possibly become a detective using Kodai's identity. Nor did it seem like Sumio Mondo would retain that love for Ayame the same way that Sumio Kodai did.

I guess I'll have to try to go through FSR exhaustively now, just to find out these details on Sumio Kodai
Steyr Apr 1, 2018 @ 4:10pm 
Originally posted by ssfsx17:
Originally posted by Arale//Zero:
3) Play Flower, Sun, and Rain to... sort of... find out. (Flower, Sun, and Rain was released between and takes place between TSC and 25W.)

I tried to read spoilers about FSR because getting a Nintendo DS is not viable for me at this time (I have too many devices right now). Didn't read that Sumio Kodai was out of prison - nor that his record was rehabilitated so that Sumio Mondo could possibly become a detective using Kodai's identity. Nor did it seem like Sumio Mondo would retain that love for Ayame the same way that Sumio Kodai did.

I guess I'll have to try to go through FSR exhaustively now, just to find out these details on Sumio Kodai

If you don't have access to a DS, i suggest at least reading a let's play of it so you can at least get the story stuff. If you haven't already searched it up yourself, there's a good LP of it here[lparchive.org]. Don't expect FSR to explain too much though, if anything it might leave you even more confused about certain things
Deep_wolf Apr 1, 2018 @ 5:30pm 
FSR doesn't explain anything. It cannot explain anything. It's just a dream :Silver_Naka:
Last edited by Deep_wolf; Apr 1, 2018 @ 5:30pm
Arale//Zero Apr 1, 2018 @ 5:45pm 
Originally posted by ssfsx17:
Originally posted by Arale//Zero:
3) Play Flower, Sun, and Rain to... sort of... find out. (Flower, Sun, and Rain was released between and takes place between TSC and 25W.)

I tried to read spoilers about FSR because getting a Nintendo DS is not viable for me at this time (I have too many devices right now). Didn't read that Sumio Kodai was out of prison - nor that his record was rehabilitated so that Sumio Mondo could possibly become a detective using Kodai's identity. Nor did it seem like Sumio Mondo would retain that love for Ayame the same way that Sumio Kodai did.

I guess I'll have to try to go through FSR exhaustively now, just to find out these details on Sumio Kodai
You aren't going to find concrete details on the circumstances (we still don't really know how he got out of prison), but at the same time, I'm not sure what the hell you were reading.

Sumio Mondo IS Sumio Kodai. (Or more specifically, one of the many Sumio Mondos is Sumio Kodai.) In digital man, when characters like Alice tell him that he's still in his dream, they're saying that even though he got his identity back, he's still depressed and wanting to be back in the unrealistic fantasy of being Sumio Mondo. That's why he tells Ayame that he wants to go with her to a paradise where there is no time; he wants to live on Lospass Island with her. But Ayame is dead, and the "Lospass Island" in which he is a nice, innocent guy who solves puzzles was just a front for the truth.

One of the main themes of Flower, Sun, and Rain is that the game is denying its own existence as a sequel, paralleling how Sumio "Mondo" is denying his own existence as Sumio Kodai. There are lots of familiar names that get mentioned offhand in FSR, but specifics are often ducked around (i.e. Kanto is usually called the "Far East", HC Unit agents are called "Federal Agents".) and the game spends several chapters lingering on unimportant fetch quests, avoiding directly acknowledging The Silver Case as long as it can.

The very end of the game really hammers this home, as Sumio is shouted at to "wake up". When he does, the art style and engine of the game change to that of The Silver Case. By waking up from "Mondo" to Kodai, Flower, Sun, and Rain also wakes up, from itself to The Silver Case. But in digital man, Sumio Kodai still wants to live in that other game, the relaxing puzzle game about doing tasks for quirky characters, not the bleak M-rated game in which he's a criminal whose friends and the woman he loves are all dead.
Last edited by Arale//Zero; Apr 1, 2018 @ 6:33pm
boxythecat Apr 2, 2018 @ 10:19am 
^^Interesting thoughts on FSR...overall I might agree. But I will say my initial impression was quite different. Granted, it was years ago, I played in short chunks over the course of a few months, and of course I didn't know much about Silver Case at the time.

To try to put it simply, what I was left with was the idea that Mondo was too focused on going from A to B as fast as possible, and the seemingly random roadblocks were there to get him to realize that there's value in other and smaller things along the way.

However, your idea makes a bit more sense, especially in contextualizing Sumio's role in the 25th Ward. Not that both can't necessarily be true, I suppose, but it also might better explain Sandance, which previously I still had no clue how to interpret exactly. If Sumio did not want to wake, it would make sense for another part of his psyche to keep the process repeating or to outright kill the other.
Arale//Zero Apr 2, 2018 @ 11:17am 
Regarding Sundance Shot, this might just be due to messy plotting, but I kind of get the feeling that there was a real Sumio Mondo at some point. I say this due to the "Eleven Children" plot point, about children who lived on and were cloned on Lospass, and Sumio Mondo (and not Kodai) is said to be one of them. Since Sumio Kodai already has his own backstory as a child (in TSC), and I think is a Shelter Kid too?, I'm not sure how he could be one of the Eleven Children as well. But that's just an idea, and there's a lot that we still don't know about that plot point.
boxythecat Apr 2, 2018 @ 11:53am 
Perhaps the eleven children are the "dream" version of the shelter children? I can't say I recall it firsthand. I think I will get out my 2DS and replay FSR today or tomorrow. I did play the PS2 version recently so the events are fresh in mind, I just don't know the language.
XcessiveNinja17 Apr 2, 2018 @ 3:22pm 
After finishing Placebo 5 & 6, the craziest parts of Correctness 4 and onwards make sense (except for when the hell did Sumio Kodai get legally rehabilitated).

Originally posted by Deep_wolf:
I suggest you to believe the net :Silver_Naka:

This turned out to be the key. Upon realizing that the GHM World may just be The Matrix, the core pieces of the story make perfect sense.

The only reason why Shiroyabu and Kurumizawa can become the type of Digital Men that they are is likely because of special stuff that was built into the 24th and 25th wards. Once the 24th and 25 wards were demolished, Digital Men (of the same power level as Shiroyabu and Kurumizawa) should no longer be possible. Unless someone hooks up an existing city with organic computers and stuff.
Last edited by XcessiveNinja17; Apr 2, 2018 @ 5:51pm
Arale//Zero Apr 2, 2018 @ 5:44pm 
I think quantum mechanics is built into it too. Of course, it's become somewhat "normal" to abuse quantum mechanics in weird sci-fi stories, so they aren't outright with it, instead just vaguely referring to 'observers'.

Remember, in quantum mechanics, if something isn't observed, it doesn't exist. Kurumizawa is an observer who has "never been observed"; by never being observed, he is able to do anything he wants because nobody else is defining his existence.
Flurry Apr 2, 2018 @ 10:50pm 
I was thinking of something like Silent Hill 2. The whole game did happen physically, but in it's own seperate little "world", like it is aware that FSR is a different game.

Like how Sundane says he will always be here, in "Flower Sun and Rain". And Sumio literally returns back to reality but in more of a literal way by having HCU and Tetsu drag him out of there, and the Island disappears, and everyone forgets about it.

And all other guests left the island as well when they found what they were searching. But that's just how I saw it.
Steyr Apr 4, 2018 @ 6:56pm 
Originally posted by Arale//Zero:
I think quantum mechanics is built into it too. Of course, it's become somewhat "normal" to abuse quantum mechanics in weird sci-fi stories, so they aren't outright with it, instead just vaguely referring to 'observers'.

Remember, in quantum mechanics, if something isn't observed, it doesn't exist. Kurumizawa is an observer who has "never been observed"; by never being observed, he is able to do anything he wants because nobody else is defining his existence.

Man, i never thought about it like that. That explanation actually makes Kurumizawa a bit easier to comprehend, though this game is still the most complex Suda game by far. There's so much stuff in this thread that i never realized on my own, i'm starting to worry that i might have been too stupid for these games all along
Danny Dataly Apr 5, 2018 @ 4:31am 
Originally posted by Arale//Zero:
Originally posted by ssfsx17:

I tried to read spoilers about FSR because getting a Nintendo DS is not viable for me at this time (I have too many devices right now). Didn't read that Sumio Kodai was out of prison - nor that his record was rehabilitated so that Sumio Mondo could possibly become a detective using Kodai's identity. Nor did it seem like Sumio Mondo would retain that love for Ayame the same way that Sumio Kodai did.

I guess I'll have to try to go through FSR exhaustively now, just to find out these details on Sumio Kodai
You aren't going to find concrete details on the circumstances (we still don't really know how he got out of prison), but at the same time, I'm not sure what the hell you were reading.

Sumio Mondo IS Sumio Kodai. (Or more specifically, one of the many Sumio Mondos is Sumio Kodai.) In digital man, when characters like Alice tell him that he's still in his dream, they're saying that even though he got his identity back, he's still depressed and wanting to be back in the unrealistic fantasy of being Sumio Mondo. That's why he tells Ayame that he wants to go with her to a paradise where there is no time; he wants to live on Lospass Island with her. But Ayame is dead, and the "Lospass Island" in which he is a nice, innocent guy who solves puzzles was just a front for the truth.

One of the main themes of Flower, Sun, and Rain is that the game is denying its own existence as a sequel, paralleling how Sumio "Mondo" is denying his own existence as Sumio Kodai. There are lots of familiar names that get mentioned offhand in FSR, but specifics are often ducked around (i.e. Kanto is usually called the "Far East", HC Unit agents are called "Federal Agents".) and the game spends several chapters lingering on unimportant fetch quests, avoiding directly acknowledging The Silver Case as long as it can.

The very end of the game really hammers this home, as Sumio is shouted at to "wake up". When he does, the art style and engine of the game change to that of The Silver Case. By waking up from "Mondo" to Kodai, Flower, Sun, and Rain also wakes up, from itself to The Silver Case. But in digital man, Sumio Kodai still wants to live in that other game, the relaxing puzzle game about doing tasks for quirky characters, not the bleak M-rated game in which he's a criminal whose friends and the woman he loves are all dead.

I'm interested in your thoughts Arale. Why do you think Ayame is dead? The scene had a dreamlike quality to it, but I attributed it to Sumio's mind being utterly ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up (Whenever we see from his perspective, he has all kinds of crazy visions which may either indicate that he's insane, or that he has some connection with the ethereal plane, it doesen't really matter which.)
If anything, I thought he was talking to her through a prison cell, but he imagined it as something different.

As per the Eleven Children, the way I understand it is that they were manufactured humans from Lospass Island, who escaped the island as children after it was taken over by the Hachisuka Clan / ELBOW and turned into a manmade island. Someone translated a Suda interview which explains a few obscure plot points from FSR on Twitter, but I can't find it for the life of me at this moment.
Arale//Zero Apr 5, 2018 @ 6:34am 
Mostly because Ayame was already established to be dead in the first game?

She was one of Tokio's lingering consciousnesses in HIKARI.

That is something that most people seem to have forgotten.

On the Eleven Children, yeah, that interview was very helpful for my current replay of FSR. I don't think they were originally manufactured, though; the interview says that none of them were born on the island. Remy and Koshi say that they've finally tracked down the "Euro Maspro" to Lospass, which has "spirited away" children for years.

With that in mind, I think the idea is that the Eleven Children were brought to Lospass from elsewhere and cloned under Eleki. In that interview, Suda clarifies which of the Eleven Children are in FSR - Mondo, Remy, Koshi and Step. Of those four, three of them have clones - or 'stock bodies' - seen in the game. (And I have my suspicions about Sundance MIC and Koshi.)

Oh, and Correctness #06 spoilers. Shiroyabu has stock bodies too, which seem to work the same way. He even has a 'rogue' stock body who is a terrorist, just like Mondo and Step.

The thing is that the year that the island was taken over by some organization, which is an event that we know the Eleven Children were around for - is 1979. Which is the same year that Riru Yukimura was killed. This is a big reason why I don't think Kodai could be the original Mondo if their backstories are contradictory and contemporaneous.
Last edited by Arale//Zero; Apr 5, 2018 @ 6:49am
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