Is GGPO netcode coming?

[King Hadu]

As the title says

[MOOEY]

Although I agree that rollback is better, this game does delay based netcode about as good as you can do it. The issue currently is that the servers are just not good, which doesn't have to do with delay based vs GGPO.

[Shogun ZA]

Hopefully not. Rather play 7f delay international games than have international play die completely thanks to rollback. Rollback is a meme.

[Schizm]

ShogunV2 původně napsal:

Hopefully not. Rather play 7f delay international games than have international play die completely thanks to rollback. Rollback is a meme.

You're an idiot.

[SaltyOneOne]

Delay base netcode should never be used for a fighting games since most action links to muscle memory. It could really affect or mess up even good players.

Just watch some streams and you will hear at least one "are you kidding me!?" Remark due to netcode in every stream.

It's fine for certain games like tekken or MK where a lot of the combo can be buffered. If it's used in a game like SFV where every hit have to be frame precise with virtually NO buffering, it'll be unplayable.

DBFZ only buffers for every other hit and due to the game being very fast pace makes matter even worst. I'm almost certain that it would play better with rollback netcode.

[KayJay]

Since the invention of G-Sync, you don't need rollback or GGPO anymore to get offline input delay experience. GGPO would be nice on consoles though, but it won't happen.

[Schizm]

KayJay původně napsal:

Since the invention of G-Sync, you don't need rollback anymore to get offline input delay experience. GGPO would be nice on consoles though.

The ♥♥♥♥ does that even have to do with anything? I'm sorry? But G-Sync does nothing about netcode. What is this even?

[KayJay]

Schizm původně napsal:

KayJay původně napsal:

Since the invention of G-Sync, you don't need rollback anymore to get offline input delay experience. GGPO would be nice on consoles though.

The ♥♥♥♥ does that even have to do with anything? I'm sorry? But G-Sync does nothing about netcode. What is this even?

G-Sync reduces the hardware input latency about 1-3 frames depending on the game.

For example, SFV does have 6.2 Frames hardware input latency on PS4 that are independend from online netplay.

DBFZ has 4.5 Frames of hardware input latency on PS4, any frames of netplay input delay get added on to the hardware input delay.
When you play a netplay game on PS4 with 2F delay, you will actually experience a total of 6-7 Frames input delay.

On PC, DBFZ only has 1-2 Frames of hardware input latency with G-Sync enabled. When you play a netplay game with 3F delay, you actually get the same amout of input latency as if you would play on ps4 offline (1-2 + 3 = 4-5).

[Schizm]

KayJay původně napsal:

Schizm původně napsal:

The ♥♥♥♥ does that even have to do with anything? I'm sorry? But G-Sync does nothing about netcode. What is this even?

G-Sync reduces the hardware input latency about 1-3 frames depending on the game.

For example, SFV does have 6.2 Frames hardware input latency on PS4, any frames of netplay input delay get added on to the hardware input delay.

DBFZ has 4.5 Frames of hardware input latency on PS4. When you play a netplay game on PS4 with 2F delay, you will actually experience 6-7 Frames of delay.

On PC, DBFZ has only 1-2 Frames of hardware input latency with G-Sync enabled. When you play a netplay game with 3F delay, you actually get the same amout of input latency as if you would play on ps4 offline.

No I'm pretty sure most input latency netcodes use the hardwares input delay to buffer the lag, thats what SFV and Tekken 7 does, pretty sure DBZ does it as well. But that still has nothing to do with GGPO and netcode. Input latency should never be used, EVER if GGPO is an option.

[KayJay]

Schizm původně napsal:

KayJay původně napsal:

G-Sync reduces the hardware input latency about 1-3 frames depending on the game.

For example, SFV does have 6.2 Frames hardware input latency on PS4, any frames of netplay input delay get added on to the hardware input delay.

DBFZ has 4.5 Frames of hardware input latency on PS4. When you play a netplay game on PS4 with 2F delay, you will actually experience 6-7 Frames of delay.

On PC, DBFZ has only 1-2 Frames of hardware input latency with G-Sync enabled. When you play a netplay game with 3F delay, you actually get the same amout of input latency as if you would play on ps4 offline.

No I'm pretty sure most input latency netcodes use the hardwares input delay to buffer the lag, thats what SFV and Tekken 7 does, pretty sure DBZ does it as well. But that still has nothing to do with GGPO and netcode. Input latency should never be used, EVER if GGPO is an option.

No, that is not how latency works.
On PS4, the best netplay experience you can get is 5.5F total latency. The 4.5 Hardware latency that is caused by the flawed architecture + the OS running in the background + the Firmware, then the 1Frame of netplay latency (the counter that is shown InGame on top) gets added on to. The average experience is 8 Frames of total delay on PS4 and 4-5 Frames on PC w/ G-Sync.

[Schizm]

KayJay původně napsal:

Schizm původně napsal:

No I'm pretty sure most input latency netcodes use the hardwares input delay to buffer the lag, thats what SFV and Tekken 7 does, pretty sure DBZ does it as well. But that still has nothing to do with GGPO and netcode. Input latency should never be used, EVER if GGPO is an option.

No, that is not how latency works.

No, im pretty sure Tekken 7 and SFV uses the software's (not the hardware, made a mistake) input delay to buffer the latency online with its netcode. You can't use the display devises input delay to buffer but you can use the software delay to buffer.

But that all said and done it doesnt matter. GGPO is better then input delay 100% of the time, the people who freak out when they hear the word "rollback" have salt in their mouth from SFVs poor implementation of it.

[KayJay]

Schizm původně napsal:

KayJay původně napsal:

No, that is not how latency works.

No, im pretty sure Tekken 7 and SFV uses the software's (not the hardware, made a mistake) input delay to buffer the latency online with its netcode. You can't use the display devises input delay to buffer but you can use the software delay to buffer.

But that all said and done it doesnt matter. GGPO is better then input delay 100% of the time, the people who freak out when they hear the word "rollback" have salt in their mouth from SFVs poor implementation of it.

This cannot bypass the hardware latency from the PS4 architecture, the OS and the firmware.
SFV on PS4 will always have 6.2 Frames delay off(!)line.
DBFZ on PS4 has 4.5 Frames delay off(!)line.
https://twitter.com/noodalls/status/961933712177819648

On PC w/ G-Sync, I can achieve the same amout of input delay on(!)line as if I would local play on PS4. That's why there is no need for GGPO with the correct PC setup, but the console versions would still benefit from it.

[Schizm]

KayJay původně napsal:

Schizm původně napsal:

No, im pretty sure Tekken 7 and SFV uses the software's (not the hardware, made a mistake) input delay to buffer the latency online with its netcode. You can't use the display devises input delay to buffer but you can use the software delay to buffer.

But that all said and done it doesnt matter. GGPO is better then input delay 100% of the time, the people who freak out when they hear the word "rollback" have salt in their mouth from SFVs poor implementation of it.

This cannot bypass the hardware latency from the PS4 architecture, the OS and the firmware.
SFV on PS4 will always have 6.2 Frames delay offline(!).
DBFZ on PS4 has 4.5 Frames delay offline(!).
https://twitter.com/noodalls/status/961933712177819648

SFV didn't always have 6.2 frames of delay it used to be worst with 8+, so clearly hardware delays aren't set in stone.

But lets assume I concede to you and say yes you cannot bypass the hardwares native input delay.

That still doesn't matter with netcode, GGPO lets you play with a wider audience then with input delay. I can't play with friends across the ocean with input delay less then 4 frames with input delay based netcode, but with GGPO I very much can and it feels flawless. Have you ever played a fighting game with GGPO, not rollback netcode, GGPO the licensed Rollback netcode. Its a thing of pure beauty, playing with people from japan with less then 2 frames of delay on 3rd Strike online edition, Killer instincts perfect online, skull girls buttery smooth online, or all the fighting games on fightcade. Its good, and no one should be saying input delay netcode is just as good or is okay when we have an option that is so much better its unbelievable.

[Chasemans]

KayJay původně napsal:

Schizm původně napsal:

The ♥♥♥♥ does that even have to do with anything? I'm sorry? But G-Sync does nothing about netcode. What is this even?

G-Sync reduces the hardware input latency about 1-3 frames depending on the game.

For example, SFV does have 6.2 Frames hardware input latency on PS4, any frames of netplay input delay get added on to the hardware input delay.

DBFZ has 4.5 Frames of hardware input latency on PS4. When you play a netplay game on PS4 with 2F delay, you will actually experience 6-7 Frames of delay.

On PC, DBFZ has only 1-2 Frames of hardware input latency with G-Sync enabled. When you play a netplay game with 3F delay, you actually get the same amout of input latency as if you would play on ps4 offline.

That simply just isn't true. G-Sync is close to the same input delay as running a game with no V-Sync, however it still adds a tiny bit of delay. G-Sync is not faster than having V-Sync disabled. G-Sync monitors do tend to have low display lag however, but you can still get a monitor with low display lag that isn't G/Free-Sync.

If DBFZ is using the newest version of UE4 (which I don't think is actually out for developers yet) then it could have a baseline input delay of 2f at 60fps, if not then it has a baseline delay of 4f.

[KayJay]

Schizm původně napsal:

KayJay původně napsal:

This cannot bypass the hardware latency from the PS4 architecture, the OS and the firmware.
SFV on PS4 will always have 6.2 Frames delay offline(!).
DBFZ on PS4 has 4.5 Frames delay offline(!).
https://twitter.com/noodalls/status/961933712177819648

SFV didn't always have 6.2 frames of delay it used to be worst with 8+, so clearly hardware delays aren't set in stone.

But lets assume I concede to you and say yes you cannot bypass the hardwares native input delay.

That still doesn't matter with netcode, GGPO lets you play with a wider audience then with input delay. I can't play with friends across the ocean with input delay less then 4 frames with input delay based netcode, but with GGPO I very much can and it feels flawless. Have you ever played a fighting game with GGPO, not rollback netcode, GGPO the licensed Rollback netcode. Its a thing of pure beauty, playing with people from japan with less then 2 frames of delay on 3rd Strike online edition, Killer instincts perfect online, skull girls buttery smooth online, or all the fighting games on fightcade. Its good, and no one should be saying input delay netcode is just as good or is okay when we have an option that is so much better its unbelievable.

That is true but then you would have to switch all the time from G-Sync to V-Sync depending on the enemy's distance, otherwise when you play against someone who is close to you, you would have much less input delay as the console local play norm, so instead of the 4.5 Frames Delay you would have 1-2 Frames delay which would mess up your inputs (it actually does mess up my inputs when I play against the CPU with G-Sync enabled)
The game, as popular as it is, doesn't really need to be played from america to japan. From EastCoast America to WestEurope you can still get only 3F of online delay which would be 5Frames of total delay with G-Sync, so the offline experience is given between America and Europe without GGPO at least on PC.

[Schizm]

KayJay původně napsal:

On PC w/ G-Sync, I can achieve the same amout of input delay on(!)line as if I would local play on PS4. That's why there is no need for GGPO with the correct PC setup, but the console versions would still benefit from it.

What? that's not how it works... Now the PC players are used to lower input delay and when they go online they still have to adjust for the extra latency that online puts on. Also now they have to get used to playing in a laggy environment every time they go to tourneys that use consoles, because let me tell you something getting a bunch of PCs for tourneys is far harder then getting consoles ready.

Input delay isnt about getting as low as possible its about being consistent throughout the experience. I can play games in 8+ frames of delay, if that's how they play offline, but if all of a sudden all my muscle memory is thrown in the toilet because I now have to deal with 2 extra frames, its not going to matter if its 8+ frame sof delay or 2+ frames of delay. Its still gonna ♥♥♥♥ me up.