Weird behavior with clutch and gear (G27 wheel)

[vectteur]

Hi, I notice something strange in the game with some truck but confess I do not tested all truck that exist. The quirk was at first difficult to notice at slow speed, in mud or rock crawling, also prior to get a g27 and choosing automatic transmission, aside from weird sound "sync" I was not sure what to think of that, also while greenlight I was not too much into critic, but now, I am all setup, with a g27, in manual mode, and the game if released since couple month and still, let say I am on tarmac, take a truck, inside cam to see the tach or external cam just be aware of the engine sound, then floor it in first

there seem to be an issue with the engine that is not able to rev to the redline, in fact far from it, then in second gear it rev higher but without fall prior to gain speed, as i am 1500rpm and when I drop the second gear it should fall down to +- 1000rpm "then" go up, but at the precise moment I drop the clutch it is rock solid at 2000rpm and if I do the math of gear ratio and given the torque of the truck, something in the drive train would fall appart in real life, or the truck should do a wheelies !!! you cannot instantaneously get from let say a ratio of 12:1 at 1500rpm to a 8:1 at 2000rpm !!! and the sound correlate to this weird behavior as the pitch is going higher

at first, prior to have interior cam and without tach on external cam, I often thought, it is like if I were doing 5-4-3-2-1 and going faster based on the engine sound and it was irritating but as I said, it was greenlight and i was even playing with keyboard some time, so didnt bothering me so much, but now that I have invested in a big setup, I find it difficult to ingeste

also when I drop a gear as the ratio story above, the rev hit almost 4000rpm each time and I have looked at the g27 config, all is perfect in other simulation like project car, the clutch of a truck cannot slip that much and should be quicker than that, how can I do technical rock crawling without having a fine control over the clutch behavior ? Also it is hitting 4000 whatever throttle i am giving, never to say in fact that when I shift gear I did not even give throttle so the truck is really doing what he want and doing it each time I shift except in automatic mode and this mode is out of equation, to me spintire if about simulating russian truck

looking foward to hear from you but am a little sad to be honest to paid two time and regret to have a wonderfull simulator setup almost useless without spintire, just another gamer fooled by prerelease and marketing stuff, that i take on me, but enlight me about the gear quirk please......

[mendel]

Spintires is a mud simulator, not an engine simulator. The revs are "guesses" at best and so is the sound.

[vectteur]

very clever answer.... so let simulate mud and rock crawling, and tire dynamics, without taking account of some critical related value like "torque", which is directly proportional to the gear, so the rev... you cannot seriously come here to reply that, it is definetely not the way you will be close friend with dev guy.... revs are "guesses".. you know when you are bullied at school, your mom come to defend you and you end up being more bullied the next day... dont be a mom.. revs are guesses.... wow...

[gribly]

No, you are definitely right. This was the main thing I was hoping to have seen changed in Mudrunner, but it wasn't touched. The engines rev higher and have more power as you go up through the "gears" but the actual ratio doesn't change. One would assume low gear would give the most torque, but this is not the case at all in this game.

[mendel]

Originally posted by vectteur:

you cannot seriously come here to reply that, it is definetely not the way you will be close friend with dev guy....

I don't know how that comes into it, I'm explaining to you why you are seeing what you seeing. I have no relationship with the developers except that I like their game.

The physics engine used for the original Spintires does some pretty hacky things because it doesn't simulate the drive train at all, it merely applies force from the tires to the ground, and the rest is just done on top of that in a realistic-seeming fashion with a couple of hacks. Mudrunner (well, Spintires previously) added some updates with see-through bodywork letting you see a spinning engine, but Pavel is a graphics guy at heart and that is all these are, I believe. You found a set of circumstances where the "realistic-seeming fashion" fails to seem realistic.

But then, once you've seen "diff lock damage" in action, realism is out the window anyway.

[vectteur]

I think I will need a therapy group to cry about this scam.... as I said while the game was greenlight I felt ok let's motivate those guy and paid for unfinished game, it was the first time of my life a beta gameplay footage lead me to pay.. then again when the game was released again in october, same euphoria.. $$ for a game whose destiny is to be bundled with cereal box.

what is insane is that it is almost as complex and tricky to develop all those fake mechanic than it would have been to code something like ETS in the background and put mud on top, but now it is too late, I may now go in the BeamNG forum and ask them if it is possible to add mud and snow...

so thanks you all, I wasn't expecting that so much people deal happily with this scam, I now will not be shamed to play mudrunner with keyboard in windowed mode while need for speed is loading as this game should be bundled with solitaire, minesweeper and hearts, oh and I am waiting for an ipod version soon !!

[mendel]

The thing is that Spintires initially used the Havoc physics engine (not sure what it is using now), and it was limited in that way. It doesn't really matter so much when all you're doing is adding some drivable vehicles to your ego-shooter, and it really does give a terrain experience that is unlike what most other games offer, quite realistic for sandy and muddy surfaces.

[vectteur]

I still dont get in which way it handle mud simulation "better" other than the visual aspect, and on that regard, any other game could do the same. I must add that as soon as a tire have a friction and a speed value, the engine being havoc, frosbite or whatever, the way developper choose to "generate" the speed value isnt related, the rendering engine just render thing, as soon as the concept of velocity exist, and that this velocity can be modulated, so not a static value, then it is possible to control it, then do whatever we want, like for example, modify the gear ratio when selecting another gear, so the speed, so the rev, so the sound, this is all lack of knowledge and lack of will, they achieve their top, and what separate them to the real studio isnt money, it is pride, at one point, even it you think that your works is perfect, you must raise the bar, when you sell for more than 30 millions $$ of game and release it again, and take more than a year to add a centered cam... I diverge.. but no, I don't think at all there is any excuse nor logic explanation to not be able to at least fool us with better sound and tach, that way I should be able to play without minding if this is all real mathematic behind, as in need for speed.. sound, tach, speed, all is there to trick me and I'm not complaining at EA forum to verify if their gearbox is real, because it is coherent, not necessarily real. And talking about shooter, even GTA can deliver a more coherent set of driveable car, on which torque, rev, sound, speed, and speed feeling, are all rendered for the pleasure of the user, the buyer, the gamer, what is the point to let the feeling aside in the name of pure simulation, and then let aside the simulation part because of quirky engine limitation.. what's left ? what is the challenge or the driving skill required ? Till now no dev have answered and I could not be able to defend them in the name of cute graphics, it is not a 5 buck iphone game, it is a russion mud truck simulator, and it would be a wonderfull coincidence that havoc let them do almost anything in the world, BUT NOT GEAR !!! common, they are just not as purist as I thought, or lazy, or they think, if one million user like the game that way... a lot of user havent yet realise it is fake, a lot dont drive real car, a lot dont drive manual, a lot play with gamepad, a lot just dont play anymore, a lot. I think they just don't want to open those old core function that may have been coded 4 year ago, because it may, it will in fact, impact erratically eveything they build on top, and it is too late, and no money left, and the spirit is gone.. each day I am more and more sad to paid two time for the very same bumber car simulation. I wish I could get the source code of the old one, filter all the gimmick and quirk, and start from there with my bro, as we both are 135 i.q. coder with artistic knowledge, mechanical knowledge, advanced physic knowledge, and a jeep, and a mountain to test drive, compare, and at least fake something that feel right. If mudrunner was a cupcake topping simulation, I wouldnt mind so much.

[mendel]

Originally posted by vectteur:

when you sell for more than 30 millions $$ of game and release it again

Where did you see that information? The number seems too high to me.

Btw, starting, like, 5 different discussions on what is basically the same topic seems a bit overblown.

[vectteur]

yes, it is overblown, totally agree, about the number i'm just adding fact, like a 29,99$ price and more than a million copies, I know that all that money isn't in the pocket of the developper, but I just want to point out that this isnt a sad poor indi boy story either, I find it difficult to swallow that a project with a turnover of possibly 30 millions $ (whatever the middleman cut and the coffee budget) cannot even reply to user nor get a centered cam in less than 3 years, as for my long live request to get a mud truck simulator, so yes, i am making fun of them and asking for a CVT isnt the same as asking for electric truck, I want to be precise, looking foward to raise attention. and if I were able to code a bot that ddos them with those kind of topic, i would do it, because what is important to me in a russian truck simulator, is to simulate russian truck, and it is feasible, and not so much complex, just that they still are 2 years behind schedule in the todo list. I get the point, it is a mud simulator, or "nature" simulator, let's add algorythm that make flowers interact with the truck ! but damn, in the world of priority, what do you think the user want to feel more immersion ? are we driving flowers ? do you even look at them ? is this a paved road toward a garden simulator ? i find it very dfifficult to understand the direction they took without making fun of them. So yet again I am talking about turnover, because net profit isnt the way you can judge a project, money could have been spent badly and at the end of the day, a turnover of 30 millions, even ending break even, is still not a little project, they are men, not child, and nobody took this game for less than a russian truck simulator. Saying that I still want to repeat that, in the 80's, test drive 1 had gears, GTA have gear, NFS have good torque management, BeamNG have great trade of regarding mud and gears, pretty sure that arcade game like MadMax get gears, I could find hundreds of arcade vehicule game with gears, being real one or greatly faked. So again, they are able to raise a turnover of 30M$, didnt manage to finish the game and make profit, get in a storm with their boss, found a way to resell it again, even to the old first day believers, and still didnt delivers nor reply once in a week, false representation, official dev facebook blog url not updated since last october. They can not eternally play the poor maiden's card and I'll stop when a dev explain publicly that the game will never be an immersive credible russian truck simulator. I'm sure their boss will agree with me.

[mendel]

Originally posted by vectteur:

yes, it is overblown, totally agree, about the number i'm just adding fact, like a 29,99$ price and more than a million copies, ... So again, they are able to raise a turnover of 30M$, didnt manage to finish the game and make profit, get in a storm with their boss, found a way to resell it again, even to the old first day believers, and still didnt delivers nor reply once in a week, false representation, official dev facebook blog url not updated since last october

"False representation" is you, your turnover is wrong since it completely disregards sales.

You also failed to realize that "they" is not the same company for Spintires and MudRunner: Spintires was published by Oovee, who kept most of the profit for themselves, and MudRunner is made by Saber3D and published by Focus Home Interactive; they did not receive any of your mythical "30M$".

[vectteur]

whereever the money is gone, a millions copies of a 30 buck game is a turnover of 30 millions, profit is something else, as I said, I agree that this money isnt in the pocket of the devs I am making fun of actually, but you cannot seriously tell to me that this is a complete different game, where were you 3 years ago when we all asked for the very same things as of today, have you as me paid two time for this game ? will you claim that you did not bough this game thinking it would be a mud truck simulator one day ? or do you still believe it is one ? I'm not getting any satisfaction ingame thinking i am helping poor guy and saving them from sad business story, You play blame game with me without regards about the lack of some critical issue, why in the world is it that its taboo to ask a real gearbox ? everybody is coming here asking for trackIR, flexible cam, some option etc... why asking for a real gearbox is so much of a sacrilege and every fan throw violin at me, is it embarrassing to all of you to realise that this game isnt simulating much more of a truck than GTA ? Why can't we together talk about it ? why is it that anything is more important ? Truth is that it isnt an havoc limitation, nor a sound issue, nor a tach issue, gears are faked and so the clutch, I am legit to talk about it, explain it, laugh about it, complain about it, asking for a fix, and really dont understand in which way I am offending users exposing that it is false representation for a game that "suggest" from the beginning that it will be a realistic russian mud truck simulator. Denial of this is just mad and dont help anybody.

[mendel]

Can you read? I wrote it completely disregards sales, the game was sold at 75% and 85% off at times and part of two humble game bundles. Your maths is wrong.

I have hundreds of hours of playtime on Spintires, I'm very happy with my purchase, and also bought MudRunner at the 50% discount.

[vectteur]

it is your choice to focus on money instead of the real issues of the topic, so they are poor dev, bad math on my side, let's move foward, you like arcade gameplay, I have no critic about you, I just want to talk about weird behavior of fake gear and clutch with user who have the same feeling about it,

[mendel]

Originally posted by vectteur:

I just want to talk about weird behavior of fake gear and clutch with user who have the same feeling about it,

You also want to insult the developers because you don't like their game. When you do that, and do it spreading false information, I have an issue with it. (When you mention money, you're obviously not talking about gears and clutch.)

[vectteur]

i like the game, just wish it could be a mud truck simulator one day, bad math is not an insult and can be discussed, so a million of game sold at 5 buck, is it what you want to debate, so a 5 millions $ turnover project unable to deliver some basic request since 3 years, now move one to the topic, fake gears and clutch, thx to bring good information mendel