Log numbers need a balance pass

[Malidictus]

Summary

Long Logs should be worth 8 or 9 points, Lumber Mills should require 12 or 16 points in Hardcore Multiplayer, every truck that can carry logs should be able to carry long logs. Please, allow me to explain why.

Precedent

Currently, the game has a very careful balance between small, medium and heavy loads, usually represeted by an Attachment, a Trailer and a Semi Trailer. Each is a major step-up from the previous, both in terms of weight and in terms of "points." Let's take the C260, for example:

A Fuel Cistern carries 1400 liters, a Fuel Trailer carries 1600 liters, a Fuel Semi-Trailer carries 3700 fuel. The jump from the Cistern to the Trailer is minor and even carrying both together still offers less fuel (3000) than the Semi-Trailer (3700). Garage Parts carry 2 garage points, a Garage Trailer carries 2 garage points, a Garage Semitrailer carries 4 garage points. Here, the Attachment and the Trailer carry the same amount of points (2) while the Semi-Trailer carries as much as both of them combined.

Utility add-ons are a bit harder to judge, but still: A Utility Attachment carries 800 repair points and 1 garage point, a Utility Trailer carries 600 repair and 600 fuel and a Utility Semitrailer carries 900 repair and 1200 fuel. Again, the Attachment and the Trailer are broadly comparable but the Semi-Trailer carries more fuel+repair (2100 vs. 2000) than the Trailer and the Attachment combined.

Basically, the the Attachment and the Trailer version of a particular addon are broadly comparable in terms of their score and the Semi-Trailer version carries as much as both and often more. Considering the semi-trailer is typically heavier and lacks the flexibility of mixing two types of load, this seems fair.

Log balance

The above does not, however, apply to logs. Short Logs are worth 3 points, Medium Logs are worth 4 points and Long Logs are worth 6 points. Not only are Short and Medium logs no longer comparable, but Long Logs are basically worthless. This is made worse by how trucks are able to carry them.

First of all, there's no point whatsoever in trying to move Long Logs. Only C255, C256 and C260 can carry them anyway, and these aren't the game's most powerful trucks. By contrast, all of the C-class trucks can carry a Log Carriage and a Short Log Cart. Two loads of Short Logs comes up to 6 points. That's as much as a load of Long Logs, can be carried by the more powerful C-class trucks and is generally easier to move.

Secondly, there's no point in trying to move Medium Logs, either, at least with C-class trucks. If those choose to move Medium Logs, they're locked into a single Attachment/trailer combo (Carrier + Medium Log Cart) meaning they can only shift a single load worth 4 points... Or they can move a double load of Short Logs worth 6 points. There's no comparison.

Finally, D- and especially E-class trucks render Long Logs entirely pointless. D-class trucks can mount a Log Carriage and a Medium Log Trailer worth a combined 7 points. Worse, E-class trucks can mount a Log Carrier and a Medium Log Tailer for a double-load of Medium Logs worth 8 points - enough to fill an entire lumber mill in one run. I get that they're big, powerful trucks which should offer a lot of utility, but... Why even have Long Logs in the game in the first place?

Proposal

Because Long Logs are effectively a semi-trailer which blocks the ability to carry any other kind of logs, I propose that they be given more points - at least 8 (enough to fill a Lumber Mill in one go) if not more. A single load of long logs should be worth at least as much as Short and Medium logs combined, in my opinion. That still leaves E-trucks with two loads of Medium Logs, but they're E-trucks. That's acceptable.

Additionally, I'd propose increasing the log requirements for Lumber Mills in Hardcore Multiplayer. This is already the case for Garages, which cost 8 points in Hardcore Multiplayer and 4 points in every other mode. With four or even 3 people in the game and with some of the more powerful trucks, it's possible to shift TREMENDOUS loads of logs very quickly.

Finally, I don't see a reason to limit Long Logs to just three trucks in the game, especially three of the weaker ones. I played the old Spintires, and I distinctly remember moving Long Logs with the D-class trucks. They can already move as much if not more wood as a load of Long Logs via a combination of carriages and carts, so why the restrictions? Why not allow a C-4310 to move Long Logs? Even at 8 or 9 log points, the added weight and trailer length would still keep them balanced.

[Gen. Zoff]

I usually load up 14(!) short logs (or sometimes 6 medium logs) into my truck (260 or 6511x) with crane and no trailer (just not "fixing" them onto the truck). Hard to lost them on the way. At the objective I crane them onto the ground, got points for 4 logs, and then re-load from ground two more times to make the objective fulfilled in only one round. Especially useful on Crossing map where you must cross hard currents with loaded cargo - this way only one time.

You can even put medium logs into your truck with the crane-carriage to carry form one point to another, its useful f.e. on the Ridge, where you can put them onto a 65115 to spare fuel. Also in that map I usually pick up logs with the K700+loader (4-3-2) and transfer them to the asphalt road, where a 65115 waits. Works wonderful with short, medium and even long logs.

That trick works on the Valley wonderfully: you must just find the 6327 with the crane and the medium carriage. Then with full fuel you can go to south fuel base then load up the 12 short and 6 medium logs, and you can easily reach and complete all the objectives in one long turn!

The only map I rarely use the long logs is the Ridge, but I prefer the short and medium ones mostly.

[Gen. Zoff]

Also outpost guards are not working correctly, until I can crane the logs from one side to another... In some situations its faster then travel round the longer way...

[Malidictus]

Yes, I've seen the Advanced Tips and Tricks guide. I'm aware that you can break the game's rules in any number of ways. I was, however, more referring to points balance as the game's meant to be played.

Currently, very fiew (as in, three) trucks can carry long logs and there's very little reason to even bother with it. Unlike any other resource in the game, there's no real incentive behind bringing the biggest, most difficuly load. For every other resource - garage, fuel, repairs - the Semi-Trailer add-on carries resources comparable to stacking smaller loads on the same truck, if not significantly more resources.

Long Logs - the Semi-Trailer of the logs resource - carries so little that it's equivalent to two of the smallest loads and actually outclassed if you throw in a medium load. All of that for a semi-trailer that only a few relatively weak trucks can even carry. I get that you can move logs without packing them with the right technique, but for someone who does pack my logs before leaving - when am I ever going to want to move long logs? Why even have them in the game when just about every other options is better?

[thehitman4uall]

I don't really agree with the increase in log delivery points just cause Hardcore. Mainly because keeping that many people seems to be a challenge into itself. Also you still have to manual load so you need a crane attachment that locks a vehicle regardless.

However I will state that the change from 2 points to 3 points in the short logs was what got me. When they were 2 points in OG that meant even at a heavy load of medium and dragged short was only 6 points, same as a single long log load. The change from 2 to 3 points is IMO what really did kinda kill (for me at least) any reason to bother with long loads, especially cause i can just log train with 2 engines and fill a station, then to try and move a 6 of 8 with a single engine.

And finally why 3 point? it doesnt break into 8 at all, and you cannot "save" log points to move to another station anyway.

[Gen. Zoff]

Size Does Matter - an achievement what needs to load long logs. Its a reward to those 8,6% whose bothered with. Also the new scavenge mode: rarely but you find easier or quicker on the Ridge to deliver long logs to the objectives.

Maybe more rewards helps to made it more popular, like "all watchpoints", "all garage" then "all objectives done with only long logs on XXX map". Or special missions, like challenges on normal maps. More complex missions, like "start with 469, search random placed cistern truck, get full cistern, refuel and repair another truck, then transfer long logs to X.", etc, etc.

I'm afraid the game itself has reached its limits. I heavily miss other players truck engine noise or even their lights at the night.

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by thehitman4uall:

I don't really agree with the increase in log delivery points just cause Hardcore. Mainly because keeping that many people seems to be a challenge into itself. Also you still have to manual load so you need a crane attachment that locks a vehicle regardless.

That's true in isolation, but should be offset by boosting Long Logs to 8 points, as I suggested. Ignoring the E-class trucks being able to fill up a Lumber Mill for a second, it generally takes two trips to fill up a Lumber Mill currently, usually either 2 trips with Medium logs or 1 trip of Long Logs + 1 trip of Shot Logs. If we boost Long Logs to 8 points and Lumber Mills to 12 points in Hardcore Multiplayer, the number of trips remains the same, though only if players choose to move the heavier loads. That way, 1 trio of Long Logs + 1 trip of Medium Logs (8 + 4) should fill up a 12-point Lumber Mill.

Mind you, I'm not really adamant about boosting Lumber Mill costs because I know it's hard to hang onto a group of 4 people. My usual multiplayer game consists of myself and 1 other friend, rarely a second person. I've so far only run a single 4-player game. It's just if Garages can cost 4 extra points, I think Lumber Mills can, as well. Besides, 12 points is a bit more easily divisible by all the load types. That's 4 loads of Short Logs, 3 loads of Medium Logs or 1 load of Long Logs + 1 load of Medium Logs.

Originally posted by thehitman4uall:

However I will state that the change from 2 points to 3 points in the short logs was what got me. When they were 2 points in OG that meant even at a heavy load of medium and dragged short was only 6 points, same as a single long log load. The change from 2 to 3 points is IMO what really did kinda kill (for me at least) any reason to bother with long loads, especially cause i can just log train with 2 engines and fill a station, then to try and move a 6 of 8 with a single engine.

I agree, though the issue was present even in the old Spintyres. You always had to make 2 trips to fill up a Lumber Mill, and it just made more sense to move 2 sets of Medium Logs than go for the Long Logs and risk getting stuck. I'm of the opinion that, like Garage Semitrailers, Long Logs should have been 8 points from the start, so that a single trip could fill up a Limber Mill, where anything else would require multiple trips. THAT would make them worth hauling.

Not only did Mudrunner not address the issue, it was actually made worse because a double-load of Short Logs - something most strucks can carry and without too much issue - is worth the same as a single load of Long Logs. At that point, why even bother? I do genuinely feel that a minor balance tweak like pushing Long Log points up to 8 would make a massive difference in who brings what truck to the game.

Originally posted by Kryxix:

Also the new scavenge mode: rarely but you find easier or quicker on the Ridge to deliver long logs to the objectives.

That's true, although the new "Scavenge Mode" isn't really a mode. It's just one map - the Ridge, from the latest DLC. If all maps could be played on Scavenge Mode, then you're right - the issue could be less pronounced. You move whatever logs the game gives you. I still feel that all C-class and D-class trucks should be able to move Long Logs, though, because sometimes Scavenge Mode will give you Long Logs which none of your trucks may be able to move.

[thehitman4uall]

I don't see adding acheivements to fix the problem of load Imbalance. I know quite a few people who are acheivement hunters, and sure, they might do it. ONCE. other than to get a one time virtual thumbs up ( I personally hate the concepts of acheivements in games, if you have to get rewarded to play a game, you might be playing the wrong game.)

The Original poster was going about the fact that the game itself bar specific achievements has no real benefit for the higher center of gravity, heavier load, and restricted truck line-up for what can be done with just a truck/trailer combo or a big rig with enough power to make it.

Right now, even the scavenge map is easily done with just running the small/medium as well. Especially if you have more than one person.

(I don't consider it a mode because only that map has it, and it is the only map that plays that way.)

But I do agree with the fact that until they do something with the game itself, change load points/different objectives/recovery or no respawning scavange (actual MODE that you can turn off or on for different maps) I feel that the game is destined to be a one trick system.

[Gen. Zoff]

"because sometimes Scavenge Mode will give you Long Logs which none of your trucks may be able to move."

Mind the default long log carrier C65115 spawned in every game on the Ridge, near the start garage. Its excatly for random spawns or hardcore players who starts only with one A469 and no other trucks.

(I tried it, its fun. 2 x C65115 for medium and long logs always spawns, along with a K700 loader in the middle area + 1 random truck A-B-C-D class. K700 can refuel, then double trailer to garage, and then its easy.)

[thehitman4uall]

I can see the point in your post, Malidictus. However I would actually have to disagree about the 8 point long log carrier/ semi-trailer.

The reason is that with all C/D class vehicles being able to carry a full mill worth of lumber, most of the C/D can easily do that even with the current loads especially since alot of people just log train anyway. so you would really need a 8 point trailer per mill (some maps only have 1) and a truck with a crane and that is the game. no need for a 2nd 3rd or 4th person except if they really want to do the watchpoints while 1 guy is doing the whole objective.

Right now if there is multiple people in game, most will choose a lighter load so they can make it easier or they will crawl with a heavy load and need a fueler and possibly a crane truck if they spill on station. with an 8 point trailer (and yes I know that the big rigs have that) you can have a 8 point, with a crane truck on tow for extra power and pickup. making it only a 2 truck game.

This is turning into an interesting discussion. Thank you both for keeping it civil.

[thehitman4uall]

I have yet to NOT get the freeking K-700 on map as a random. And I despise that tractor!
But yea, the game I believe is made that even as a single jeep starting on Hardcore single player, they have the minimum truck ability to complete the maps with regardless.

Always a truck that can carry logs, a truck that either has a crane already, or one that can attach it. and normally a lighter C or B series for either fuel/repair/ or another log loader or carrier.

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by thehitman4uall:

The Original poster was going about the fact that the game itself bar specific achievements has no real benefit for the higher center of gravity, heavier load, and restricted truck line-up for what can be done with just a truck/trailer combo or a big rig with enough power to make it.

Precisely, and thank you for the summary. When it comes to hauling logs, the harest load to move should also give the most points in order to provide both incentive and reward for hauling it. This is true for most other resource types, but not for logs. Hauling Short and Medium logs isn't just easier than hauling Long Logs, but also just as lucrative. This lack of incentive renders one of the game's most compelling mechanics - moving awkward loads through difficult terrain - pointless from the perspective of completing a map.

Garage Points, Repair and especially Fuel offer the correct incentive between light and heavy loads already. I'm surprised that the balance of log cargo lacks the same incentive to quite this extent.

Originally posted by thehitman4uall:

But I do agree with the fact that until they do something with the game itself, change load points/different objectives/recovery or no respawning scavange (actual MODE that you can turn off or on for different maps) I feel that the game is destined to be a one trick system.

Maybe not quite "one trick," but it certainly limits its scope. Proper balance between light and heavy loads should ideally give people a meaningful choice of whether they want easy hauling across multiple trips or much harder hauling across fewer trips or even just a single trip. It's a sort of ad-hoc difficulty customisation, where players can trade work efficiency against difficulty. For that to work, however, more difficult tasks - the heavier loads in this case - need to have disproportionately large points rewards in order to justify the extra challenge, time and necessity for mastering core game systems.

With log numbers as they are right now, the easy hauls are also the most efficient, which robs the game of some of its depth.

Originally posted by Kryxix:

Mind the default long log carrier C65115 spawned in every game on the Ridge, near the start garage. Its excatly for random spawns or hardcore players who starts only with one A469 and no other trucks.

I'm aware, yes, but that's specific to that map and I'm not a huge fan of those trucks. If Scavenge is to be an actual mode (and it could be), a broader solution would be necessary than spawning specific Long Log capable trucks. Honestly, just letting all the C and D trucks carry Long Logs (sort of like in the old game) would be a good, easy solution. Considering Long Logs are pointless outside of Scavenge where the game forces them on you, I don't see the downside.

In general, I don't see the upside to limiting general-purpose equipment to individual trucks. I can sort of see why B-class trucks might not be able to carry Long Logs or why E-class trucks might not have tools to carry Short Logs. That's understandable. I just don't see why a C-255 can carry Long Logs but a C-375 can't. What's the benefit to that? Especially when there's no way to know which truck carries what loads unless you memorise all of them.

*edit*

Originally posted by thehitman4uall:

I can see the point in your post, Malidictus. However I would actually have to disagree about the 8 point long log carrier/ semi-trailer.

The reason is that with all C/D class vehicles being able to carry a full mill worth of lumber, most of the C/D can easily do that even with the current loads especially since alot of people just log train anyway. so you would really need a 8 point trailer per mill (some maps only have 1) and a truck with a crane and that is the game. no need for a 2nd 3rd or 4th person except if they really want to do the watchpoints while 1 guy is doing the whole objective.

Again, though - a chance to increase Long Logs to 8 points would come with a change to increase Lumber Mill requirements up to 12 points on Hardcore Multiplayer. That way, you still need multiple trips and multiple people to speed up the process, but you NEED Long Logs if you want to retain the 2-trip requirement. If a team wants to haul lighter logs, they'll need 3 trips per Lumber Mill, instead, thus creating incentive to carry Long Logs. Granted, that'll make Single Player easier by reducing the trips necessary, but that already has plenty of complications since a single player has to micromanage all the trucks. That, and hauling Long Logs isn't easy, so some may be tempted to do multiple Medium Log runs, instead.

[thehitman4uall]

You worded that much better and what I really meant, Limited scope indeed.

I think the overall issue we will have to agree on however is what are they focused on?

If Multiplayer you want more people involved with the delivery or assist with the points
so you really want to aim at a higher amount of resources required to finish, However since this is not a "quick" game, and without the means of a name and description for the lobby, you will have a hard time keeping players from just quitting after 10-20 minutes if they are not invested.

OR

Are they focused into the solo and then it's mainly about how 1 person has to have the necessary equipmnet to complete the task. That means less drudgery and repetitiveness to just finish 1 thing.

[thehitman4uall]

I can see how that could work, but again. The problem is that some maps are designed for the grind, downhill?, the bog and valley? are meant to have to have a fueler for the most part, as well as an occassional tow. But then again you play multi and your long log guy flips and quits on you. so now what? you have to deliver 12 points of lumber with you 2 trucks that can carry that load. 1 is already a fueler that you will have to go all the way back to garage and swap out, then down to get logs and... oh yeah I need fuel!

This is obviously an extreme scenario.(kinda, it seems to happen quite a bit once someone either loses a truck or flips a load) but what then? does the game drop required points needed for a mill based on player count? or do you just end up having to quit the map and start again?

For the record, Having thought about it for a bit, I like the idea of a 12 point mill, but again seeing as how this game will take a good 40 minutes to do an easy map sometimes. I can't see to many people gearing up for a 2 hour standard hard map. (just checked current NON mod lobby. there was 1 up.)

Also, that really wouldn't solve the issue you stated before.
Long logs would be 8 points
Medium still 4 points
but shorts are still 3 points

a carriage and trailer are 6 points x2 = 12 points so 2 trips with short bed and trailer (also you can log train so 1 trip with two b-131 or such could technically do it)
a long log 8 points plus a medium 4 points = 12 points so 2 trips with a long hauler and a meduim bed and trailer (again you could try to log train that, but the long log loads are finicky with either the AI being towed or you trying to tow a medium load behind you r long one. And you need 2 beefy C/D trucks for this)
3 medium bed and trailer 4 point log carry = 3 trips (even log train can only do 2 of the 3. So this is the only one technically needing 2 trips regardless.)

So again, unless you are playing with some actual friends, and thereby making your own rules so to speak. I sadly cannot see a change taking place for a change of load.

(Storytime)

I used to play Spintires with a decent core of people, we used Spintires + and changed the vehicles on the map for different difficulties.

The river we once only had a B-66/ start B-130, first turn standard B-130. and the diff lock only orange semi where the 4320 use to sit.

The mission was that you dragged that semi laoded a crane and used that as a stationary crane at kiosk. You then had to use the small log carrier on the B-130's to complete the actual log runs.

The B-66 was mostly used to tow your trucks across the river.

The problem I have with Mudrunner is that you cannot RESTRICT trucks or equipmnet, making the game easier or harder than trying to just type to people about anything, also with the random spawn trucks you cannot gurantee any sort of balance.

(edit the number)

[Malidictus]

I was mostly going off of the logiv behind Garages in Harcore Multiplayer. In Single Player and Casual Multiplayer, they take 4 points which a single Semi-Trailer will fulfil, but in Hardcore Multiplayer they take 8. I'm simply applying similar logic to Lumber Mills, as well. You could argue the same should apply to Fuel and Repairs, as well, though I'd argue that's self-correcting. More players means more trucks burning fuel and taking damage, thus increasing the need for fuel and repairs to match the increased availability. This was all, obviously, based on the initial starting point of making Long Logs worth hauling, of course, and I still feel they ought to be worth more, or at least Short Logs ought to be worth less. I'm not entirely sold on trucks carrying double loads of Medium Logs, either.

More to the point, though, my focus isn't actually multiplayer :) A friend of mine got the game on discount since I'd talked about it and sort of brought another three of us back into it because he was playing it. All of the multiplayer game's I've played were with friends on voice chat, in a lot of cases with people going AFK for extended periods of time.

As such, my focus is mostly on making everyone in a game feel needed for something. Currently, Semi-Trailers are by far the hardest loads to move, which means the people who choose to move them are the slowest, most team-dependent players in the game. I want that playstyle to be worth engaging in - that the player who chooses to bring the Long Logs feels like they're actually contributing and that the drain they put on their team's resources is actually worth something.

If I want to move a set of Long Logs but my team decide to move two sets of Medium Logs, I may as well just log out of the game or turn on the TV in the current game. I'm in what's already one of the weaker trucks moving slowly and needing fuel + towing, while my team-mates rush ahead with lighter loads which carry as much as if not more than mine on less fuel, and have to actually STOP doing that to come help me out. I would be fine with this if I knew that finally bringing those Long Logs would make a big difference, but at their current points value it simply doesn't.

The game needs to ensure that a single player has all the necessary tools to accomplish the required objectives and that the required objectives aren't too grindy for a single player... IN Single Player. In Multiplayer, I'm of the opinion that team cooperation should be encouraged and objectives should not require but actively benefit from having multiple people doing them. That's why Garages need double the points to unlock - because at the very least double the people are in the game as compared to Single Player.

That's my standpoint, anyway. I want to be independent in Single Player, but I'd like all my team-mates to feel valuable in mutli-player.

[thehitman4uall]

I agree in the fact that again, I would love for the need of communication and dependence between players. But honestly if they opened the long logs for more trucks, dropped the shorts back to the original 2 points, and keep the longs and mediums the same point as they are/were. that would pretty much clear this all up anyway.

again it would take a long log and a short for a single 8 point mill,
that breakdown from OG was simple. There was no single load win.
2 medium trucks (4 point a piece.)
1 short 1 long (obviously 6 point + 2 point)
4 short carriers (ie 4 short carriage or 2 truck and trailer)

The whole reason the log system is messed up in this one really comes down to the extra point they gave the short logs.

Back when it was 2 point, you had a choice between short bed and trailer for 2 points a short or a truck/trailer for medium 4 point so they were the same. Just if you wanted to deal with a stand alone trailer or that 2 point normally could haul a fuel/repair trailer to help

that way the long log was worth 3 short combined! the risk/reward factor was there because even with the shorts both loaded there was a 2 point difference. and you could only run 4 point medium because the log carrier is a trailer attachment.

I guess what I see as a solution is just to simply drop the shorts back to a 2 point. Especially because while they made a limited availability for the long log carriers, pretty much every truck outside of the actual jeeps can carry a short bed. Thus you don't even need heavy duty trucks to do most maps cause you can and it's easier to use alot of the B series due to the better fuel ratio and lighter costs.

Again I loved the b-130/131 in OG but both had major drawbacks. The 131 could barely take a 2 point load and you had to crawl due to the underpowered engine with that weight. And you would have to do a trip 4 times with that due to there was no real way to take a trailer with you.

Now even though you still have to baby it, you can take a whole 6 points in 1 trip because the 3+3 you can do now. Let alone if you train a second light truck, that one only needing a short bed! My standard go to in most non water maps now is just throw 2 B-131 as my starters because I know the map will give me at least 1 crane loader and with them i can just finish a mill as long as I get that 200L from a garage sometime during a trip due to their great fuel economy from a larger C/D class.

Yes the Long Logs in this game are for the most part a relic of the previous version from what the breakdown shows...

Shame cause it was indeed such a great adventure having 2-3 trucks trying to make sure that the 1 would get to the end, hugging the sides or gently tapping it to stop a rollover, a fueler with spare tire leading the truck and there for a tow with another gently pushing the back when needed, ahh the memories!