Real efficiency and production rate for economy of scale

[Sn!ck[CH]]

Hi Alex


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EDIT 22.11.2018
There was a mistake in the calculation. The cost per piece stays if you use 200% instead of 100% in the game. +100% upkeep, - 50% production time means: double the output and double the cost. Sorry for the missunderstanding.

The rest of the feature request stays (splitting efficiency and production boost)

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First, thank you for the great game (for a Alpha version it is impressive :)

I played a bit around with the "efficiency" part that is implemented. But in my opinion, this is not really an efficiency thing then more a production booster (kind of : turn your maschine to the limit).

for my understanding: efficieny would mean, that
- the cost per piece would go down on a higher production rate (economy of scale)

If I'm not wrong, the overall cost per piece in this case is even higher (oposite of "economy of scale")
- 100% "efficiency" , production x (100%)= y (100%) maintenance cost
- 200% "efficiency, production 1.5X (150%), 2y (200%) maintenance cost
In other words: double the maintenance cost for 1.5 production speed. That is not economy of scale, because the overall price per piece goes up.

I would suggest, that there are two different features and parts in the tech tree to be more realistic.

1) Efficiency
- This cuts down the upkeeping cost of your buildings
- 5-10, or 20 Levels of efficiency to research. Each level gives you some % (*)
- must be done on a per building base
It is costly, so it must be chosen wise. Over a long play time it will boost profit.

Production rate
- Go for a 200% with 1.5 production speed and 2 times maintenance cost
- (*)Maybe go even higher till 300 or 400% or even 800% (depending on the efficiency levels available).
A good option if you need a high product rate for good that is rarely (like gas), but need a high output for contracts. Think of a machine that you are speeding up (outside of the optimal zone). It makes sense, that it cost more then on 100%


(*) If the production rate and efficiency is well balanced, you should have on the max efficiency and production rate level a 1:1 cost (or a bit less, 90%? to stay on the economy of scale) than on the 100% level. Then you have a challange to go for both. If someone is just going for the high production rate, it will be costly and probably painfull.

Maybe there are other thoughts to it? looking forward to a interesting discussion :)

[Alex, Master Penguin]

Hey man, thanks for your kind words and thought-proving content!

In 7.2 (or 7.3?) we had exactly that, and it's one of those things that look good on paper, but players bluntly rejected. Nobody ended up using the efficiency slider, as it was cheaper and "easier" (between quotes as it doesn't apply to my weird way of thinking) to have more buildings instead of one at 200% efficiency.

Some of that was theorycrafted here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/671440/discussions/0/1736595131055257424/

[Sn!ck[CH]]

Hi Alex

Thank you for the fast reply. Honestly, I can't find in the link you provided the information I was lookign for. Is there not only the discussion about the efficiency how it is now? or what exactly changed to the actual release?

Sorry, I have played the game this weekend the first time so I don't know what was earlier in the game :) It's a pitty that people didn't appreciate it, if it was already implemented like I suggested :(

What I see: you can research "efficiency" and then go till 200% per building (that's what now is in the game). Here is the point as explained: I think, this is not efficiency but more a bost (more output, but higher price per piece).

[Hohoz]

Hello Snick

Currently ingame 200% Efficency is double upkeep and half (-50%) the production time.
That means it's double the production not 1.5 as you mentioned.
That also means it's the same cost per piece as 100%

Less production gain vs upkeep increase is what Alex meant when he said we had that before.

As for your suggestion itself (splitting it into two mechanics)
Sounds nice but maybe a little more confusing for some players.
Basically what we have now is the same idea but "always balanced" if it was done as your suggestion.

The topic Alex linked discusses some special case about farms and gatherers where increasing efficiency have a different effect than increasing fields. Related but discusses a more specific case.

[Einmaniac]

Originally posted by Alex, Master Penguin:

Hey man, thanks for your kind words and thought-proving content!

In 7.2 (or 7.3?) we had exactly that, and it's one of those things that look good on paper, but players bluntly rejected. Nobody ended up using the efficiency slider, as it was cheaper and "easier" (between quotes as it doesn't apply to my weird way of thinking) to have more buildings instead of one at 200% efficiency.

Some of that was theorycrafted here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/671440/discussions/0/1736595131055257424/

Oh, you changed it, that explains things. When it was first introduced, there was a penalty, but last game I played, there seemed to be no penalty so I thought I was losing my mind. I guess I missed that in the release notes.

The problem is that the current implementation is also problematic because what happens is you just set everything to 200 once you have it, there's no reason not to. The idea of tweaking the efficiency of a factory is good, especially to help synchronize the production of items at different rates. But I think there needs to be some penalty.

I might recommend that when you unlock higher efficiency, you do not automatically get it for a factory. But you can instead upgrade the max efficiency of the factory via further investment, 25% at a time. It might be cheaper to upgrade a factory than to buy a second factory, but it should not be free. Once you upgrade a factory it should not have a penalty, as now. But it isn't just a slider you set for free, you must invest into a specific factory to be more efficient.

I think that would make the efficiency slider still get used, while making it more strategic about where you invest, because upgrading every factory to support 200% would no longer be a no-brainer.

[Sn!ck[CH]]

Hi Hohoz

Thank you for your explanation. You are right, there was a missunderstanding from my side.

At the moment, there is no penalty, you can just produce twice and pay twice the upkeep (it is linear). I'll correct it on my first post, yo nobody gets confused