Not much to solve the game?

[some moron]

Hello. I'm wondering whether other players are finding the same thing I am. The game is broken for most products. They aren't worth the shipping. Not at Startup level.

I've found that after shipping, airfilter, and disasters, there are only four Tier3 products profitable : Napkins, SummerClothing, Dolls and Dollhouses. All other products are barely profitable if ever. Anything that involves animal products is never worth buildings because of the additional cost of fodder for something that is not equivalently more valuable, and why not just build something that sells for more but doesn't cost the fodder to produce.

The only Tier1 worth building are Fibers, Dye, LightFabric, Train, Stuffing, and Furniture.

Diner and Grocery items are not valuable enough to be worth producing. In fact if those are the first buildings, I'll choose a different city, so I can choose Toy or Clothing.

In Startup the resources are limited so it doesn't work to sell copper items for example.

Depending on the items it can be worth to have a HomeGoods or the other one, but again, only if the best priced items don't require the limited resources.

Fish is never used.
Also Fish is actually one of the few renewable resources so the fact it is limited is wrong.

State is silly and never a good deal, so ignore state everything.

And the train and ships, while a neat idea, seem wholly unreasonable. And unnecessary.
You would have to ship a LOT of stuff to make it worth it, and why would anyone ship that much stuff? Build stuff at the city so you don't have to ship it. And don't build metal requiring buildings at non-metal cities, just build toy and clothing. So never any need for train or ship except maybe for aesthetics.

So it seems to me the game is broken, or stripped down to "only build these eight items and never the majority". Why is wood and sand and water even an option to sell? they sell at a loss.

I feel like I pretty quickly "figured out" the game ie the four items that are worth producing, and there's nothing left to do in the game.

I would expect a normal "replayable" game would have changing circumstances such as in one game it actually was very profitable to build beef stew and in another game not. But no, play the game with the same formula every time.

For the price I paid, I expected a replayable game but it's not, it's just the exact same thing each time.

Just wondering whether other people had also exhausted the game, without much thinking required.

[Alex, Master Penguin]

Every single product follows the same formula. The fact that you think those products are more profitable, it's due to the map you're playing. Roll a new map and it will be different products. It's the base of offer and demand. In any case, the point is not to survive with T1, but to make a prototype. Selling T1 is easy and almost mindless.

Lastly, of course, the State should never be an option; it's a dumping ground for newcomers. I specify this in the tutorial and help panels. Last resort only, not a real source of income

[some moron]

Okay thanks! I'll try watching the prices better!

[Tyler Silvia 19xx]

oh wow, haha.... Nothing you have said I have agreed with. Its absolutely absurd for you to say that this game is broken! Just because you have the game "figured out" (or at least you claim you do) doesn't mean everyone does, or that there is not other factors that you did not consider.

Trains are used often to move stuff to city's you do not own, especially on the large map, it saves a ton of money. Also the fact that you may have one city in a corner of the map that supply's your coal, and need it in your main city is the opposite corner.

Just because you think fish are a renewable resource, doesn't mean its wrong. Its a game, and its not your game!

For animals, yes, they cost more then the products sell for (depending on your game settings). But that's part of the game, and part of the fun. And you still may need to produce them in order to make higher tier products.

It is a option to sell sand, water, and wood, because again... its part of the game, good job, you figured it out for yourself! Also the fact that it depends on your sell price settings.

State IS a very good idea I currently am running a game where I can only have control of a single town, witch means I have to buy some resources from state in order to make products.(additionally means limited building space). Also rubber is great because it is renewable, and sells to state at a good enough price. And if you really want to get rid of state, give the map 4 shorelines.

I think one of the important things about this game are the settings.
TBA, the price you paid, I don't know what that is, maybe its normal price.... but that's on you. I personally got the game during a sale. The game for me is better then I expected, And still worth it at full price.

[Alex, Master Penguin]

Originally posted by Tyler19xx WL:

oh wow, haha.... Nothing you have said I have agreed with. Its absolutely absurd for you to say that this game is broken! Just because you have the game "figured out" (or at least you claim you do) doesn't mean everyone does, or that there is not other factors that you did not consider.

Trains are used often to move stuff to city's you do not own, especially on the large map, it saves a ton of money. Also the fact that you may have one city in a corner of the map that supply's your coal, and need it in your main city is the opposite corner.

Just because you think fish are a renewable resource, doesn't mean its wrong. Its a game, and its not your game!

For animals, yes, they cost more then the products sell for (depending on your game settings). But that's part of the game, and part of the fun. And you still may need to produce them in order to make higher tier products.

It is a option to sell sand, water, and wood, because again... its part of the game, good job, you figured it out for yourself! Also the fact that it depends on your sell price settings.

State IS a very good idea I currently am running a game where I can only have control of a single town, witch means I have to buy some resources from state in order to make products.(additionally means limited building space). Also rubber is great because it is renewable, and sells to state at a good enough price. And if you really want to get rid of state, give the map 4 shorelines.

I think one of the important things about this game are the settings.
TBA, the price you paid, I don't know what that is, maybe its normal price.... but that's on you. I personally got the game during a sale. The game for me is better then I expected, And still worth it at full price.

Many thanks for your kind words. I do agree that figuring out what works for oneself is part of the fun. It's a sandbox-y type of game, so I can't always tell people what to do with precise objectives. Carving your own path, your way, is the objective

[some moron]

Originally posted by Tyler19xx WL:

oh wow, haha.... Nothing you have said I have agreed with. Its absolutely absurd for you to say that this game is broken! Just because you have the game "figured out" (or at least you claim you do) doesn't mean everyone does, or that there is not other factors that you did not consider.

----
I meant broken in like "here's a game called chess, but if you do these four moves you will win every time" then it's not really a game is it, just a puzzle
---

Trains are used often to move stuff to city's you do not own, especially on the large map, it saves a ton of money. Also the fact that you may have one city in a corner of the map that supply's your coal, and need it in your main city is the opposite corner.

---
So it sounds as though you yourself have not solved the game, since you only have two cities. I play on the hardest setting, and I always get four cities (NPC have the other two), and there is never a need for coal.
As I explained, and you have not countered, why on earth would you build requiring coal where you don't have it. I suppose you could make a contrived situation that requires that, such as only four cities and three players.

Trains are not required to send to another city. I use trucks to do that. It costs a lot less than trains, particularly in terms of space and tracks and ability to build near a city and still reach the shops. Late in the game it can be difficult to build a warehouse near two shops.
---

Just because you think fish are a renewable resource, doesn't mean its wrong. Its a game, and its not your game!

---
Well I would sort hope it would align with reality. Why call it fish then, call it something else so it makes sense. Why isn't wheat limited?
---

State IS a very good idea I currently am running a game where I can only have control of a single town, witch means I have to buy some resources from state in order to make products.(additionally means limited building space). Also rubber is great because it is renewable, and sells to state at a good enough price.

---
Sounds as though State is a good idea for you because you aren't playing at a challenging difficulty. That's fine, but then that means it's not a game with challenge, it's a city-builder. Not any more of a game than Lincoln Logs is a game.
---


I think one of the important things about this game are the settings.
TBA, the price you paid, I don't know what that is, maybe its normal price.... but that's on you. I personally got the game during a sale. The game for me is better then I expected, And still worth it at full price.

I'd go head to head against you to prove my points but this game can't be competitive because there are too many random factors, there isn't even a way to compare yourself on your own map because there will be major differences on the same save. The game needs a "Competition" mode that locks down all the randoms.

[Alex, Master Penguin]

The game is reactive, not random. Do the same actions on the same save, and you'll get the same result

[Thalassophobia]

Selling to State is a way to get rid of the surplus you don't want.
Let say ,I produce leathers for my textile production ,
but I just can't find a place to sell byproduct , i.e. milk and beef.

Train is important for fast transit of goods.
You would want your goods to reach shops within 15 days to sell them.

But I find it annoying there's only 1 shop (of each type) in a town.
Can't stuff everything in within 15 days without warehouse (I tried).
Traffic is unavoidable.

Also ,Irrigation tower won't show their +10 tiles.
It's still the same old area effect in their ghost form.

And I sooooo understand the problem with livestock.
Since not every city need all of the product produced by the farm.
Some demand leather and milk ,but don't need beef.
That's why the profit is not good with all the investment we have to give.

[some moron]

I think you all do not play at hard difficulty.
If you played at hard difficulty, you would see why state is never a good deal. Nor trains or other transport besides truck.
I think at easy levels you can use all the stuff this game has. But if you play at hard difficulty, 70% of the stuff becomes a loss.

[Thalassophobia]

Originally posted by some moron:

I think you all do not play at hard difficulty.
If you played at hard difficulty, you would see why state is never a good deal. Nor trains or other transport besides truck.
I think at easy levels you can use all the stuff this game has. But if you play at hard difficulty, 70% of the stuff becomes a loss.

Isn't it normal to have your action limited when playing in higher difficulty ,though??
I can finish Tropico2 in the highest difficulty set up ,
but I got my move limited the that game as well.
For example ,I can't keep prisoner with Courage higher than 7 around for too long.
I had to turn them into my crew or just kill them (or ransom them),
even though they have nice skills.

I can't risk to lost my ship because wood is limited resource.
So I had to plunder with muskets and cannons instead of cutlasses.
Thus yield less reward on each cruise I sail out to the sea.

Your fun end when you beat the highest difficulty level.
My fun end right after I wipe out all my rival.
After my rivals are out of business ,
it become a game of mapping ( and remapping ) production line.
Wait and see my trucks go into towns like Pachinko balls.
And dev being overly protective on AI make them boring to play with.
It doesn't have fun mechanic like Railroad tycoon.
Railroad tycoon has its AI protected too ,
but at level where it's still fun to play against them.
I can harass rival's stock price ,invade their business ,something like that.
But THIS. This game has rivals I can't touch. They're unapproachable.
Whatever I do ,they JUST CAN'T DIE.
I built factories near them ,pollute their air and water.
I used those PM 2.5 to kill trees around their lumberyards.
I reconnect their road to my snaky dirt road that make them run for decades to reach where they want.
Etc Etc Etc
AND THEY JUST MAKE MONEY LIKE NOTHING EVER HAPPENED.
Their stock price never drop ( Selling them doesn't count )
It just keep going up.
And the only way to beat them is to buy all of their stock.
Can you see how my creativity went to waste?

And unlike City Skylines.
I can't disperse my traffic because there is only 1 destination for 40-50 trucks to go to at once.
Packing them into a load of 3 with warehouse?
You should know of that story from your difficulty ,right?

The idea of Rise of Industry is nice and cool.
But I recommend Capitalism over this game if you really are interested in this kind of game play. ( Mapping production line ,that is )

PS. I won't nag this much if this game is real gibberish. It just keep making me do math each time I tried to do something. Too much to keep tracking problem. And probably easier to start them all over rather than looking for what went wrong.

[some moron]

Isn't it normal to have your action limited when playing in higher difficulty ,though??
--- Maybe at high level the transportation is too expensive UNLESS I use train??? or MUST move goods from once city to another (that would be very difficult)

Your fun end when you beat the highest difficulty level.
My fun end right after I wipe out all my rival.
--- True, there can be different funs :)

The idea of Rise of Industry is nice and cool.
---I agree, very nice idea!

But I recommend Capitalism over this game if you really are interested in this kind of game play. ( Mapping production line ,that is )
--- I never heard of Capitalism. I just bought this and will try.
I recommend you try Sid Meir Railroad, there the rival are very strong. Strong competition for goods sales. Very nice action for trying to buy each other's company.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/7600/Sid_Meiers_Railroads/

[Alex, Master Penguin]

While I enjoy the conversation going on (both of you have very valid points, I need to disagree with the very last statement: SM's R is a completely different game, where the focus is logistics. Does it have events, production lines, dynamic economy and so on? It's like saying that Doom is better than CoD just because both have guns at the bottom of the screen

[some moron]

Production lines? You mean like steel to make automobiles? Yes. Wood to make paper to make Newspaper? yes.
Dynamic economy? You mean like "this city was not buying coal and now it is"? yes. Do you mean "the mayor of this town will pay a bonus for this good delivered to this town" (just like ROI) yes. Which is then also an event. There are also global events such as lowering price of lumber for a while.

I do agree the focus is more on logistics than production. But obviously you can't ignore production (or have nothing to sell).
Just as ROI has a focus on supply chain, but you cannot ignore logistics, I mean the warehouses, trains and zeppelins and ships are logistics.
Was the goal of ROI to focus on making many things used to make many other things? I think that's a good game thing, but what happens when you make one top tier thing? Now what? In SMR you would still be in competition selling that top tier thing against competitors.

Both games have the concept of buying other's players stocks (which is a good thing) except ROI competitors seems to be disabled. In SMR they will buy your stocks, and build in a city before you can, cutting you out. So ROI seems a casual city-builder, because the competitors are mostly inert - you cannot lose to a competitor. There is no "game" element because you are not competing against anything.
In SMR you can easily lose a game when the competitor outperforms you and then buys you out, it's a competiton or race of me vs each of them.

ROI has a bunch of neat stuff that SMR does not, such as more complicated supply-chains, and I like that. And I get to decide where to place my stuff and I have to deal with supplying water to farms, so in that sense yes, ROI is much more concerned with manufacturing. I don't think they should be the same games. But where is the skill required in ROI? There is no competitor to beat. (or be beaten by).

In Doom and CoD you can be beaten by an enemy. so they both require skill.

[Thalassophobia]

Originally posted by some moron:

Production lines? You mean like steel to make automobiles? Yes. Wood to make paper to make Newspaper? yes.
Dynamic economy? You mean like "this city was not buying coal and now it is"? yes. Do you mean "the mayor of this town will pay a bonus for this good delivered to this town" (just like ROI) yes. Which is then also an event. There are also global events such as lowering price of lumber for a while.

I do agree the focus is more on logistics than production. But obviously you can't ignore production (or have nothing to sell).
......

So it's the same with Railroad Tycoon ,with better graphic?
Then Dev's point was we don't produce our own product ,but carry the material around and turn them into a product by dropping them in some industry?
He's right in that since player can't build production wherever they want.
Players need to rely on the producers.

But SM is also right if we cut the said starting point out then it's very much the same production mechanic.
Like carry 2 irons and 1 coal to a foundry to turn them into 2 steels ,and carry 2 steels to a blacksmith to turn it into 2 tools. Then the player carry it to towns with tool demanded.
Supplying these towns will also support the them to grow.
And they'll generate more demand and supply.
( ROI town doesn't generate Supply ,though )

Event ,in Railroad tycoon ,
A blacksmith might start with a process to turn Iron into Tools ,and Steel into Tools.
An event might change them to stop accepting Iron.

On a brighter side ,
Railroad tycoon player can decide if they want their train to go where carrying nothing ,or carry loads of things.
In ROI ,we can't decide what to carry on the way back home. Transporters are going back to their home with empty load ,but the player still have to pay for the dispatch fees.

For example ,
I have a warehouse to stock steel ,iron and coal.
I want to send my processed steel to my warehouse and let a train carry them elsewhere.
Then I want the dispatch truck I used to send the steel to take irons from my warehouse back to the smelter.
This transit will cost me only 100$ (delivering 1 steel) and 100$ (taking back 1 iron).
But in the real game play ,
I must pay 100$ to delivery 1 steel and another 100$ to take back my empty truck.
Then pay another 250$ to carry 1-3 iron(s) ,and another 250$ to take back the also empty truck.
Not to mention this is making unnecessary traffic.

I really do think separating production and transportation into 2 different things is better.
Don't really need trucks in every building.
Just a truck depot to generate them ,and logistic window to command their route.

I'm not saying it's wrong.
I'm saying it could be less wasteful.
ROI is an Economy game ,but lacking in trading system.
At least ,player should be able to trade or buy product/technology with rivals.

Oh ,and Economy game now a day can build their own production building too ,don't they?

[some moron]

Yeah I agree, I do like having to try to maximize by placing my fields and factories carefully and having problems from traffic and having to figure out where my roads go. I like the one-way! I like this about ROI, I have to plan and think, and if I am clever, I can produce more goods than a poorly planned city. That is very important in ROI. I like!

In SMR, all resources are like the resources in ROI such as fish and copper - they are all only from pre-set sites. And cannot build in every city. Then you must send to cities who want to buy. (And if you spend money you can build a shop in a city to buy what you want, kindof like ROI)

One difference is in ROI you can build wheat at any city. I think it would be better if some cities had limited land because of uneven terrain. So then I must ship wheat from one city to another. Currently I never need to ship wheat to any city because they all can have. And maybe only sheep in hills. Either a city buys less copper goods, or copper goods profit less money.

So, not hard sites like copper, but "this city can produce a lot of wheat but only THAT city buys wheat and that city can grow only a little wheat. And they make cotton but THIS city buys cotton." Then the railroad must be cheaper than trucks. But yes may a problem with empty trains which is not true in real life, or in SMR. (I never played railroad tycoon). Because it makes twice as many trains as needed, half empty.

Because now, if a city has copper and buys copper, then build copper items.
If has copper, but does not buy copper, do NOT build copper stuff because can make same money from clothing or toy.
It should be "can make copper here but can only sell there AND IS MORE VALUABLE THAN CLOTHING" Because then I must make clothing until I can pay for train to ship copper items.

Because industry doesn't usually make and sell only in one city like in ROI, in real life a factory must ship to many cities to be profitable.

[Thalassophobia]

Originally posted by some moron:

So, not hard sites like copper, but "this city can produce a lot of wheat but only THAT city buys wheat and that city can grow only a little wheat. And they make cotton but THIS city buys cotton." Then the railroad must be cheaper than trucks. But yes may a problem with empty trains which is not true in real life, or in SMR. (I never played railroad tycoon). Because it makes twice as many trains as needed, half empty.

That's already implemented in ROI ,though?
Some city demand Copper wares but have no copper mine in its region.
In no terraforming mode ,not all region is suitable to do farm due to scarce water resource.
( Lets not count the almighty water well. )
And some resource has high demand but not worth shipping them.

It's the same when you're playing SMR ,right?
Is product's price rely on the distant between your start and final destination?
The longer the way ,the higher the price??
And the value decayed overtime???
Thus if your train is too slow then the value will decay pass the point it's worth shipping????

It's very much up to you to make something ,or not.
And ROI gives more freedom to decide ,that's all.