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Do you understand the concept of asymmetrical warfare, like guerrilla warfare to name one? Well, the idea is to recognize and acknowledge such tactics early on, and adapt to them. If you keep playing standard and don't realize what is going on and what is gonna happen if you don't adapt, yeah, you'll get overwhelmed very soon. Ever heard of the saying "It's a bad plan that cannot be altered"
While I do not spam units myself (i don't use mothership tech on overlords at all, so no point, and unless i play arclight carry or snipers where spawning them en masse is the way), I also use corners. I tend to play elite myself (meaning fewer units, of 2-4 unit types max that complement each other in role) and I struggle against swarm of 15 to 18 bots too, but struggling does not mean I never beat them.
Mustangs, Typhoons are the more obvious answer to the mothership boats as they can clean the wasp easily. Mustangs can somehow nullify boats main missile volleys with Anti-Missile. Typhoons are more resilient and do a bit more damage. Then obviously you can have boats of your own, melters, even fortresses with anti-air are all valid choices as giant counters. Even a wraith, provided it has some levels can do wonders in clearing the wasps and while it will go down relatively fast to the boats coming behind (again unless you have some anti-missile tech, which you find on 3 units) it might be enough to open up the way for your other units to aim at the motherships.
In any case, mechabellum is really training you at combined arms tactics. Find synergies between units. But the boat mothership strategy is not one that requires its adepts to be tactical geniuses and that is one reason why it is popular. But the real reason why it is efficient, is not because it is that amazingly strong, it is because most people don't know how to react to and fail to see it coming before it is too late. That the real strength of this, and you posting what you posted only proves that point.
Besides, you can use beacons yourself on pretty much any unit type you have. You can flank, you can intercept, you can flank and intercept. Or you can also go in the opposite corner. I cannot tell you how many possibilities there are, but I can tell you one thing that I am 100% sure of: whining on the forums is not a valid strategy.
Well, what teammates? I think the idea of that mode is Free For All. If you are admitting "coordinating with teammates" (meaning you aim to take 1st and 2nd if you are two, and probably are connected over some voice messaging software) that does mean you have quite an unfair advantage over other players (akin to cheating), most of them playing by themselves.
Also note that at some point, the 2nd place lose you points and only the first is worth something (unless the 2 other opponents are of much higher MMR than both of you), so that's likely a nice way to end your "friendships" when you both reach higher levels.
As a free anecdote, i had a game where one guy started to tell the 2 others what to do to counter me, as I was winning the game. Instead of fighting for the 2nd place and maybe get some points or minimizing their losses, they indeed listened to the guy, both trying to attack me and ignoring the other guy who took the opportunity to backstab them treacherously. They both finished with 0, and on last round the other guy won the game and I ended up 2nd (I had low MMR at the time, theirs was higher, so it still gave me a nice increase) but the 2 idiots who got manipulated (which is why I allow myself to insult them, because it is factual) lost quite the amount.
Yeah, in FFA no one is your friend.
Sure. I suggest we all play with only fangs too, deactivate all techs, remove all starting specs, force the same deployment for all. In other words, equality in misery.
I mean, do you realize how preposterous this suggestion is? I get it, it's frustrating, but please refer to my reply here above again.
For example, I had a match where I was leading by 3800 points, on the battlefield I had a lot of carry Arclights between levels 5-9. The final boss wasn't a problem, I was also able to destroy the players on the left and right. But in the end I unfortunately didn't have enough units to intercept the 12 overlords including wasps. The player had 0 points until the last round and had shown no skill at all until then, but in one fell swoop he gains over 4000 points and can win the entire match. Since I was in the position opposite this player, I couldn't really mount a direct counterattack to prevent his escape... So in the end you can say that the player with the least skill and a cowardly escape completes the game from my point of view undeservedly wins. (Yes, this strategy requires zero skill. Anyone can simply spam overlords and flee into the corners! If the neighboring opponent starts to counterattack, you can simply switch sides with the jump drive...)
This is really very frustrating and destroys this game mode.
Some suggestions against this:
- The corners behind the flanks are made restricted areas; it is no longer possible to control your units there with a beacon.
- Each player only has one beacon, no additional beacons can be purchased. (Yes, I know that unfortunately also takes away a lot of opportunities for strategies on the front...)
I like the new mode and would like to play it more often because I see a lot of potential in it, but unfortunately it's currently more frustrating than fun. I hope the developers take this issue seriously and do something about it.
Imagine this scenario: You prepare the first 3 rounds or so completely normal even tho you know some people have aerial specialist. Nothing special happens until round 3-4, at this rounds atleast 1 player builds mass Overlords. He comes to your corner. At this point you need to invest every little dollar to counter the flank, otherwise your getting astral fisted.
While protecting your flank you can't build your necessary army-comp against the other players, so you will lose naturally to the others, because you builded for anti-air on one corner.
Well now guess what: The Overlord players uses jump drive and blasts the player on the other side. Now you have overloaded your side without any direct use + you will get shredded by the insane lategame AI Bots, because the Overlord player just hides and avoids them.
And now tell me again how there are so many counter units and how easy it is to play against. The Overlord player doesnt give a ♥♥♥♥ and switches sides.
And by the way, even if BOTH enemy sides of the Overlord player decide to concentrate on flank defense with anti air they are both doomed because the remaining untouched player is always in an insane advantageous position.
This playstyle meta promotes unfairness in my opinion.
Overlord+Jump drive was already busted in 1v1 if remember correctly, even tho I dont play this gamemode anymore. But atleast you wouldnt get blasted by Ai Bots becuase the other player HIDES in a corner xD. Its even more insane when you think about that is it an advantage for the Overlord player when his turrets gets destroyed, because it slows him down and thats what he wants: As late as possible interaction with AI/players.
When you think building useless flank defenses while getting smashed by Bots that shouldnt target you, following an armada of 10 overlords which perform a drive by after chilling in da corner for 2 hours, when you really think that is balanced/fun, then please upload a video where you counter that stuff and I will praise you as the mechabellum god.
And with counter I mean like something reliable. I also won against Overlord comp already, but it was just luck.
I think banning beacons in the corner is almost the same as having no corners at all.
And having only 1 beacon is probably useless too, because with 1 beacon you can control 6 overlords and that already is busted.
I would vote for removing jump drive on Overlords in 4pBrawl. I think it would make the game more strategic instead of less
Now not only I encountered that strat (which is what most high MMR players do, and what many other less skilled players try to emulate because, well, it is not exactly rocket science to emulate) very many times, but I was - not easily for sure - able to overcome it more than once. The thing is, after playing about 50 games with a frontline, I came up with the idea myself to use the corners, but I achieved success mainly by using Typhoons and Phoenixes as my core and sometimes Wraith, Wasps, Mustangs or Overlords as complementary units. I had nearly a 60 games win streak (where I ended up mostly 1st, sometimes 2nd but even then still making MMR progress). Upon reaching 1000+ MMR, that is when I started to meet more and more of the overlords mothership spammers, sometimes 2 of them at the same time in each game.
My own composition, which evolved depending on the cards/free units I was getting, generally was good enough to beat even 15 overlords even if I never fielded more than 4 overlords myself (i don't use mothership tech at all, and if I use wasps, it's would be because they dropped in one of the free unit rounds). It is one of the most challenging composition with LR snipers spam and Arclights carry that were allowed to grow in level and lastly EM meme Melters, mass LR phoenixes or Fang Fortresses spam. While I have seen many creative variation and hybrid tactics using both compositions that actually work (this excludes scorpions, vulcans, rhinos and many more that simply won't perform as they are too specialised).
So only versatile units work in FFA, if you want consistent results each round and especially for the last 4 rounds. That is one reason overlords work so well. It is likely the most versatile unit. Another is that is is flying, so it won't aggro ground units that don't have anti-air capabilities. Then you have this 3 spawns of wasps per overlord that provide a moving chaff shield. It is a very easy strategy to grasp, setup and use. And with that empty corner, and the fact you can escape AI aggression, get your towers blown up early when you are out of reach of any opponent (that does not specifically comes for you while you are under the effect of a loss tower). And the thing is with the overlord tech not only you get the speed you need to go far enough not to aggro the AI units at the start of the round, but you can also easily change position each round if you so choose.
Now as I said, I reached rank 1 using the corners, but without spamming overlords myself (my use of overlords is as a tank and my strategy doesn't rely on them specifically at all as I try to remain flexible in some way till round 7, usually i use only 1, maybe 2, and only once I used 4 because it was suitable to win the game as 2 players had AA mustangs spam and 1 had AA wasps spam, so it was practically immune to what they thought would counter me (I bet that despite being respectable MMR players, they forgot to check what tech I had on the overlords + I got lucky with 2 or 3 HP items). Anyway, I also played this game in this new mode quite a lot and I forgive you for not knowing who you are talking with. But well, you the one who brought up your pedigree as if it gave your argument more legitimacy.
What you call "completely normal" is precisely why you struggle. If that threat of bot spamming exist then you need to start taking it into account and change your definition of what is normal. Because your current definition seems to not work. Find a new "norm" which is flexible and that allows you to adapt to such scenario. If you are committed to a front line by turn 3 or 4 already, that means you are not flexible.
If you ever play in a game where I also am, you will see that like in most games I play, I sell quite a few of my units, and my starting units rarely survive being sold beyond round 6, unless they are serving some purpose in my overall strategy. I know I only get 50% money back in this mode, but if I leave them on the board I get 0 value anyway and they might feed exp to the other players, which is not something that you want either."
Now I think that if you don't immediately counter a mothership spammer, you can also take advantage of the extra AI units that will come for you (provided you instead focus on increasing your frontline firepower) as those kills you get will give you a strong economy next round which you can then use to prepare a smarter counter like something that will achieve both missions (killing more AI units fast, open the towers to you and then also be useful for dealing with that player).
Yes I would still maintain my argument. Also, if you expect fairness in war, you are naive beyond words. And don't say to me "but, but, this is not war, this is just a game....", because it is a competitive game in a war setting, so basically it is war, just in a virtual simulator. Expect humans to be really mean, ruthless and relentless in their application of virtual violence, just like they would in the real world in a conflict setting where there is no forum where the slain can go and complain about being unfairly assassinated. Get a grip, for your own sake.
Now, that I rightfully bashed you as you deserved, let me be a bit more constructive: what about another scenario? What if you actually tried the very tactic you despise so much and see if it works for you. Maybe, it will work a few times, and maybe you will get countered and then you will know... some counter method works very well. So then you can come back to your "completely normal" opening and have an idea of how to adapt it. What about that? Does that sounds like something clever to do if you wanna learn new skills?
Yes, overlords are on of the most potent units in the game. It is flying, it is fast, it can teleport, it does huge damage with its main attack, can spawn units with both tech and items, has tanking and regen abilities, has huge pool of HP, and is very, very, very easy to use setup... and the most wonderful thing is that you can use it too.
So as said above, go to the other side, see by yourself and try to learn something from the experience, even if ultimately that play style does not suit you, because it has a lot of downsides and weakness anyone who do understand can exploit.
OK. If you say so.
While i truly love your ideas what about a button that makes you win instantly any game in which you are displeased by any of your opponent strategies? I think that would be even easier for the devs to implement.
Aerial specialist, sell something every round, win with 2, then 4, then 6 overlords. Consistently winning turn 4-5 with the strat. Without aerial specialist turn 6-8. Last match I even told them to counter me and the did it one round with lasers but it took all 4 of them spending resources against me and they all still lost against AI and my overlords came in and picked off whatever was left. It is a dumb and something needs to change.
I did quite a bit of testing against bots. While being consistent myself with the testing I can safely say this is strategy has the potential to succeed in spectacular fashion as well as fail in even more spectacular fashion.
Therefore it is a high risk - high reward strategy and in my book that is the anti-thesis of "dumb" or "boring".
But I will proceed to using it more extensively at the risk of loosing a bit of MMR from this experiment and only then give my final thoughts on it.
Zero risk if you get jump jets/move them every round and mobile beacon them as far away from the battle as possible. I suggest less condescending posts and more playing/understanding the game before you continue to make yourself sound a fool.
Look up 301/401 top 6 player replays on youtube, Chinese characters required in the search only times it goes to round 10 is when all 4 are using the same strategy. I stand by what I said…it is dumb.
Ah ah, less condescending posts. Right, well what does that tell me? One that you are an insecure person. Second that you are actually projecting which is further enhanced by the very fact I did not name called you so far (but trust me, now you might get something back), but you did in that very post strongly suggesting I am a fool (for what, questioning your lack of argumentative power?) Now you are telling me to watch videos on youtube, which is pretty much the infamous "educate yourself!" many people throw at you when they have no more argument of their own that they can formulate themselves. But yes. I am the one making a fool of myself and being condescending. Obviously.
Now let me elaborate in autistic details, since I got nothing better to do currently and provide you with an actual argumentative effort and associated analysis of your theory that demonstrate how badly I understand the strategy myself (at least the early rounds, because then the outcomes become too numerous to study properly on this plateform and since I do not plan to write a thesis which I doubt that you would even understand anyway, i'll spare myself the effort), and how much I actually need to watch chinese top 6 players (which would include myself since I am currently top 6 worldwide... or at least i was yesterday, now it might have changed - can I watch my own replays? or am i required to be chinese to have any relevance?).
STARTING SPEC
This strategy "works best" with Aerial spec as it provide both a 200 economical advantage (free overlord unlock round 1) and then a flat HP/ATK bonus to all aerial units. It might also be done with Quick Supply spec, but only provide the economical advantage then.
REQUIRED TECHS
Overdrive, with a base cost of 350 is a not an absolute must, but it allows for more flexibility with the free redeployment each round and its speed increase is valuable to keep up with any other fast units you might be having as well as managing AI aggro in an easier way (this adding unpredictability and allowing to escape any efficient counter from other players). HP Regen and Armor are good and relatively cheap techs for early rounds (base cost of 150 and 200 respectively) but are only useful for later rounds if you go for an elite build (no spam, but leveled+teched overlords). If you plan to spam for mid-late game and maintain a fleet of up to 21 overlords (which is the max you can easily move with 3 beacons, provided you get the extra one from cards) then those tech might be less desirable (still useful in early rounds).
Mothership is obviously the best skills for the late game if you chose spam. For an elite build it is less important.
Range is pretty much a must have, although it is generally not the tech you have to unlock first.
Overload might be desirable but bear in mind the shoot twice as fast also comes with a range reduction (the probability of a wide spread anti-missile unit is low in FFA, and static anti-missile device are obviously not popular for good reasons). Other techs like ground guns and splash damage are less desirable but if you like them they might still have some use in specific situations.
STARTING UNITS
Depending if you plan to only use boats, then starting units type is somehow negligible. But even in that case, you might want to consider their speed as it will contribute to aggro while they are still on the board for the first 5 rounds.
If you plan do keep at least some of them, as aggro magnets or distractions or even as part of your build then you definitely need to consider if they are flying or not (meaning phoenixes as this is the only option currently) or if they are fast (meaning mustangs, balls or crawlers). Fangs, Arclights, Sledges are most likely something you wanna sell.
ROUND 1 SETUP & PROCESS
Whichever spec you used, unlock the Overlord.
Loan 200, which gives you the money to buy the boat. Buy it.
Check the AI unit composition and formation. Are there fast units? Do they have anti-air capabilities? Are they deployed in a balanced front line or a delayed one? Are they deployed in an aggressive flank? Answers to those questions matter to optimize this strategy. All of this parameters should allow you to predict which unit will be pulled toward your forces and in which fashion and that matters a tiny little bit.
Now you can sell a unit if you like for 50 or 100 if you so choose.
You might want to preserve some of your starting units for extra score or to act as chaff giving your overlord more time to shoot down stuff. But you need to consider that very carefully and take all the above mentioned parameters into account. It might be best to actually use them in the front line in order to give your overlord time to escape in a corner (i.e. if you are facing phoenixes which will pursue you after the towers are destroyed).
You need to evaluate all of that quickly before you chose a side. If you chose to stack your sledges in the corner and the AI has balls and crawlers, there is a huge chance that you will get pursued, which in that case might be desirable as your overlord will destroy them (maybe at the cost of a few sledges tho).
Another thing you wanna take into account is the composition of the other players and their spec as well as an evaluation of their skill level (you get that intel from the game starting screen).
Once you have made all those decisions, either use the beacon to move your overlord toward the corner area of the side of your choosing or if you think that the economical benefits would be better, just move towards a tower and fight some units on the way if you think it is a better option (which it might be in some cases).
UNFOLDING OF ROUND 1
There are various scenarios possible, but generally speaking it can go mostly 3 ways.
1st the AI crushes all other 3 opponents, and then overwhelm you too (not desirable at all for scoring, but potentially excellent for economy)
2nd the opponents manage to crush the AI, and then depending on composition and aggro behavior might present a challenge for you or have a chaotic brawl which benefit you (a somehow desirable situation for scoring, but not good economically)
3rd opponents resist the AI through pyrrhic victories and the result is a disorganized multidirectional mess that you will highly benefit from (balanced for both your chances to score and balanced for economy)
I could add a 4th possibility which would be, in the early rounds at least, pretty much the same as situation 1, in the event some if not all opponent all decide to also use any form of denial of combat by also moving their troops to corners.
Now let's quickly add some remarks to those general outcomes. Of course in both situation the composition of the troops matter. Snipers and Phoenixes going to inflict damage and eventually take your one overlord down especially if some crawlers or mustangs (or any unit really) prevent you from shooting them down quickly.
A round 1 victory is from my own experience, quite rare. Possible, but improbable. It really depend on how the other players performed.
Now the economical aspects. If AI forces are not weakened by other players along with towers, you might think it's good for your economy. Sadly the practical reality is you gonna make some coin, but as you will get quickly overwhelmed you could already estimate yourself lucky if you made more than the other players.
ROUND 2 SETUP & PROCESS
You start with 400-300 for the loan you took. If you sold a starting unit, you have either 50 or 100 on top. Then there might be good money from the killing of AI unit and eventually towers, if you managed to achieve anything on that front. This would be crucial of course as if the overlord did not perform well and you made pathetic coins, you might have to loan again to get the second one. Not a good sign, but the situation is not yet desperate.
Normally you get the first free unit this round and your best option would be the level 2 Typhoon that cost 50 and sells for 225. Otherwise any giant costing 100 and selling for 200 will do. So that is either 100 or 175 extra. Now you should be able to deploy a 2nd overlord and 2 of them together is an entirely different beast than a single one. If you performed well in round one, maybe you can even afford a tech or save the money for next round.
Again repeat process of evaluating the situation like in round 1, to decide how to use your beacon. Generally speaking, the best decision will likely be to start moving towards the corners. That might increase the chance of triggering a reaction from the player on that side of the arena as it is likely he will perceive this as an aggression or at least a delayed threat and he might not be too happy with that.
UNFOLDING OF ROUND 2
Now the other players are aware of what you are possibly doing, provided they are not completely oblivious to realities. How they react to the situation might have anywhere from zero impact to completely preventing you to win. In some cases their action will actually help you (even if they think they are fighting you) and from there you must understand the success or failure of that strategy, as efficient as it seems to be, is highly dependent on that very fact, on top of all the other usual things that can go your way, or completely go tits up for you.
But let's assume the best case scenario, that not only the round was won and the score was upped by 800 or a bit more, and that at least 400 resources from killing units and towers landed in your 3rd round budget. At this stage, yes. You might already be unstoppable or at least became an extremely serious challenge.
ROUND 3 SETUP & PROCESS
Now you get 600. Sell one more starting unit for 50 or 100. If you lucky with the cards, you get senior manufacturing for 50 which would likely be a must or an item that might help you a lot. Otherwise skip for 50. We will only examine, because of the original claim of this post, that you were indeed victorious in round 2 and made at least 400 extra coin. That means you now have more than 1000 resources. Likely at least one of your Overlords has leveled up. You could level it up if so decide and still have money to deploy 2 more level 1. With that money, options are plenty. You can also go for only 1 extra boat, lvl2, level up the one with XP and get a tech. You can even go all in and again, take a loan for some extra tech or the expensive overdrive or already for mothership or even go for global unit upgrade from towers as a complementary yet permanent boost.
Indeed, at this stage you can clearly see this strategy if left unchecked is pretty much unstoppable. That is something you claimed that I would likely confirm.
But is it the ultimate strategy? I doubt. It is a high risk, high reward strat. It requires some conditions (including very unaware human players who play like bots in FFA) to be moderately successful. It can achieve that success in spectacular fashion for sure, but it also has the potential to fail in an even more spectacular way.
A clever, skilled player will make the best out of it, as that player is clearly aware of the weakness of this approach and will find a way to compensate for that. But can anyone do it? The opening yes, but from round 2 or 3, if other players react appropriately to it in any fashion, then the average player will likely fail.
Trust me, with your starting "argument" and the way you presented it, no reasonable person would expect you to change your mind.
See, there I am being very sarcastic and mildly condescending towards you. Before I did indeed mock your extraordinary claims that came with no extraordinary evidence, but that was loving and playful. Sorry you did not appreciate it for what it was. Now I can see you are clearly not an intellectual heavy weight and I apologize for expecting you to not take offense and maybe reply with your own playful and sarcastic style which I would have welcomed.
While I do answer your "argument" (or lack thereof I should accurately say), I am not doing against you or with any expectation it would have any effect on you. This is a public post in a public forum of a community I acknowledge to be as much part as yourself are and our diverging opinions force me to think about issues I would not otherwise even consider. It is an interesting exercise to have any kind of challenge, and you present me with one for which I am grateful. But I have no expectation to convince you, or a potential audience. I do not care, I do not preoccupy myself with the opinions of strangers on the internet, so this process I admit, is strictly egotistical, and unlike you who throw pretty basic 403 insults if I have to return the favor in kind, I will do in a bit more subtle and refined way because nothing of this is personal to me (as said, you can wish me the most horrible demise, call me the worst name you can come up with because you conceptualize them as hurtful if they were told to you, but I am nothing like you. I won't actually care, you were nothing to me before this post, and your attitude is clearly no incentive to take you seriously or respect you beyond common decency.
Feel free to dig your own grave in public deeper now, if you indeed - to quote your own words - wanna "continue to make yourself sound a fool" as so far you did not provide anything of value, nor any valid argument or demonstration. Calling something dumb is no argument. It is an opinion, the expression of a feeling regarding the subject you define in such way. So it is worthless in any other function than letting us all know you don't like something. Great, what a nice contribution you made there.
Yes, I do believe there is a high probability it will be changed too. But I do trust our species to find something else that will annoy you to no end, and I trust you and people who share your behavior to come back here and cry, and whine and say everything they don't like is boring or dumb.
I am not expecting this to be patched by nature as the Karen starting specialisation is apparently a very popular one despite being one of the less efficient.
If this is really a big issue for you guys, you too can sacrifice your ranking for the greater good. (See it more as an opportunity to bully lower-ranking players once you've lost MMR)