4 Player Brawl Mode (FFA) - Denial of combat using corners becoming the new meta

[wrathtribe]

3 Days ago, I started playing that mode exclusively. After about 50 games where I tried to hold the line against the AI and kill towers, I came up with a creative idea. Instead of fighting the AI, have it fight the other players for me by moving my forces to the open areas of the corners.

I went from an absolute nobody in the ranking to top 10 worldwide after an unbelievable streak of wins that surprised even I. Some players were not happy and insults flew like a swarm of wasps, others wiser learned from me as I replayed them and saw they tried to adapt the idea to their own playstyle. Of course this strategy now has spread like wild fire (and very likely other creative people found out too, i don't claim ownership on the idea even if I came up with it on my own before seeing anyone else doing it too), each players adding his own touch and variation to it. Slowly, everyone will be using this and I think it was a problem in the very first place, a design flaw.

Unless this is intended by the devs (which I would press X to doubt) of course. Anyway, let me explain thoroughly my logic when I came up with the idea. Also, it is not a perfect strategy, cards, starting units, specialisation chosen at start are very important and sometimes well, it will fail because it is a high risk, high reward strategy and so many factors (including massive luck) can break it or make it.

First, you need to understand that if you don't kill AI units and don't go for tower, your economy will greatly suffer. Second, you need to plan that this strategy relies on move beacons, which you can have 2 guaranteed (1 at start, 1 for 100creds in the tower) and maybe 1 more from the cards if you are lucky.

While I first based this strategy on using a combination of Typhoons and Phoenixes, of course it works very well with boat mothership spam as you can do 12 up to 18 of them (and it works particularly well if you can redeploy them, also maybe you can even move 15, or 18 with only two beacons but as I don't use mothership nor spam single units in my playstyle I did not test that yet). But any flying or fast units will do (i.e. mustangs can be used, I also tried crawlers and rhinos but it only worked in very niche situations). Alternatively, if you play a bit more traditionnaly, you can use slower units like melting points as long as you slow the AI down a bit.

Now that you understand the basic of the unit selection concept, let's detail how this works. So the idea is to deploy your units far behind the towers in the corners of your starting area and move them as far as you can from the AI units that will destroy your towers very quickly as they encounter almost no resistance. You units will be slowed, which is actually desirable and attract only a few, if any of the AI units. The rest of them will soon turn on your fellow human players.

That means it is extra difficulty for them to fight the AI off, but also that if they manage, they will get a major boost to their economy. So it might not always work in your favor, but more often than not, the other players get overwhelmed. Sadly for you, sometimes they indeed get crushed so badly, that this is too many units for you to deal with and you will die too.

Using flying tanks like Wraiths or Overlords with defensive/healing skills can do miracles sometimes early game, though this is a huge investment that is not always that useful for the late rounds as the probability of facing EM units and high damage units is almost 100%.

In any case, like any traditional strategy, you still have to observe what your opponents have and "listen to the cards" as, as I mentioned already, there is no guarantee to win with this strategy and if a player (usually the one on the side you are moving your units toward will see that as a threat, and indeed there is a big chance that at some point you will destroy its towers if the AI did not) decide to dedicate himself to counter you when you are under the effects of your towers having been destroyed or even flank you directly, then there is a big chance you might not win the game as usually the player opposite to you will have an easier time wiping the guy who committed himself so heavily to counter you (which is 95% of the time a very bad idea from that guy as his towers might also get destroyed simultaneously as yours and result in mutual assured destruction but more often than not, if you are smart enough he will annoy you but you still will overcome him).

Anyway, I am not going into all the details of my thought process, and how I adapted this strategy in so many games, with so many different reactions to it from my opponents. Also this strategy, maybe with the more flexible bot spam combination, seems to be good to go up the ranking ladder, but if the 3 players turn against you because they know you are the biggest threat, then this is almost a guaranteed loss (I can't tell you enough how many times I been ganged up when I just needed one more win to become 1st, and lost so much MMR than i needed to win 5 more games to make up for it).

Now, some people called this "an exploit I was abusing". Well, maybe it is an exploit, just like everything that helps you win and yes, I did fully commit to the strategy because half measures are not as efficient (though hybrid strategies can work and I did that too, mixing the denial of combat tactic with a more traditional "line of defense" using flexible units and saw some players also doing that already).

In any case, now that I've seen many people inspired by this and coming up with their own variations of it (it obviously was going to spread like wildfire, as if you invent an efficient weapon, your opponent will have it in no time, especially in the context of a video game with a save replay feature) I can also see it will prompt the devs to do something about it, unless we all accept this is the new meta and way to play the mode. Though I can also see a counter strategy coming up, that might consist of a strong aggressive push against the AI, using mostly a mix of multi-target, long range and fast unit to push for the towers and build a very strong economy, then switch to a specific counter with that money on later rounds.

Also note that this strategy works best if you take the lead in score and you'll struggle if you don't. The rounds where bosses are guaranteed but towers are only defended by slow tanks, not only those take ages to reach your towers, but they get pulled easily and are completely useless against most players compositions (this is also a design flaw in my opinion, but related to another topic as I think there should be at least two randomized units defending the towers in the late rounds and at least one of the two should have anti-air features).

If the devs really intend to force us to play a more traditional line of defense, there are several ways to fix this. I can bring some ideas to the table - let's start with two or three -, though there of course is an infinite amount of ways you can deal with the issue, if indeed we agree this is an issue. So first, if the pathfinding allows, you can simply make the areas beyond the flanking zone inaccessible (or making the arena octagonal, which would solve the pathfinding problem). Another way, would be to have an economical penalty for losing towers (since this strategy means you want your towers to go down as early as possible).

Ok, now I leave the discussion to the community.

[NrSeven]

I agree with some points and disagree with others, thank you for a well written post, they happen so little nowadays here.
Though if I may suggest, you will most likely get a lot of angry people responding to this, putting it on r/mechabellum might be a better idea to get some traction. I also think there's a higher chance of devs reading the post there than here. (Steam discussions toxic AF)

[wrathtribe]

Originally posted by Papa Delmain:

I agree with some points and disagree with others, thank you for a well written post, they happen so little nowadays here.
Though if I may suggest, you will most likely get a lot of angry people responding to this, putting it on r/mechabellum might be a better idea to get some traction. I also think there's a higher chance of devs reading the post there than here. (Steam discussions toxic AF)

Thank you for the kind reply. I am quite unfamiliar with the steam forums so i am not sure what you mean by "putting it on r/mechabellum".

As for angry people, well, I suppose this is still the internet, so if they are too aggressive and personal I will just end up blocking them as I have no time or consideration for that kind of primitive behavior. Anyways, thank you for the advice/warning! :)

[NrSeven]

Originally posted by wrathtribe:

Originally posted by Papa Delmain:

I agree with some points and disagree with others, thank you for a well written post, they happen so little nowadays here.
Though if I may suggest, you will most likely get a lot of angry people responding to this, putting it on r/mechabellum might be a better idea to get some traction. I also think there's a higher chance of devs reading the post there than here. (Steam discussions toxic AF)

Thank you for the kind reply. I am quite unfamiliar with the steam forums so i am not sure what you mean by "putting it on r/mechabellum".

As for angry people, well, I suppose this is still the internet, so if they are too aggressive and personal I will just end up blocking them as I have no time or consideration for that kind of primitive behavior. Anyways, thank you for the advice/warning! :)

Steam forums is generally speaking a cespool of raging kids and trolls. With r/mechabellum I meant the subreddit on reddit. People there are a lot nicer than they are here.

[Arti_Sel]

Good effort! Idk if it's a problem yet. I've had success beating the defensive overlords with eco AA wasps and eco AA mustang spam+. But defensive overlords can be very oppressive especially if they are across the map and neighbors do nothing/focus on countering me because I steal towers. That said idk how it looks on the top of the ladder but I think the meta can change very quickly in these early days.

Also I have a similar experience with the early rhino drop, it's not game-ending. But -100 early to get like 200-300+ (and the unlock) is easily worth as a supply spec. But recently I've seen all sorts of specs do it and it seems almost random which rhino survive the drop and get the cashout. The early advantage becomes massive then when everyone else is -100 on top of the extra supply.

[wrathtribe]

Originally posted by Arti_Sel:

Good effort! Idk if it's a problem yet. I've had success beating the defensive overlords with eco AA wasps and eco AA mustang spam+.

Well, there are several efficient strategies like "long range fast firing snipers" spam with something that can either tank or clean chaff and some EM somewhere (either on the snipers, or maybe melting points or phoenixes). Then the arclight carry spam is still also very strong. Then you have the mothership overlord spam. Fang/shield/AA
fortresses still have some relevance with the appropriate support. I have seen a lot of people insulting others who use those efficient strats just because... well, shocker, they works pretty well. Basically, there are many who find everything to be "problems" just because they have bad strategies themselves, spam too many units types, don't tech them well, or fail to recognize when those tactics are employed and don't know how to counter them appropriately.

But I agree with you and share the point of view in a way. What I mean is that I do not know either if that is an actual and objective problem (tough I strongly suspect the devs did not anticipate it that well) or if it is just that many players just like to whine and complain about anything they don't like or lack the skills to counter, which tells more about their mental capacity and maturity than they realize.

Now for defensive overlords, that does means they were not properly set up if you managed to beat them with mustangs or wasps without EM or any EM/high alpha damage support (while AA helps, if the overlord has the 2 defensive skills, HP upgrades from towers, and a few level ups, maybe a HP increase item, it becomes basically immune to fast firing, low damage units if those are of inferior level as it is and can tank many of them and still win the attrition struggle being a single entity) and can even resist a fully upgraded Typhoon pair for some time provided it is max of the same level.

[Arti_Sel]

Originally posted by wrathtribe:

Originally posted by Arti_Sel:

Good effort! Idk if it's a problem yet. I've had success beating the defensive overlords with eco AA wasps and eco AA mustang spam+.

Well, there are several efficient strategies like "long range fast firing snipers" spam with something that can either tank or clean chaff and some EM somewhere (either on the snipers, or maybe melting points or phoenixes). Then the arclight carry spam is still also very strong. Then you have the mothership overlord spam. Fang/shield/AA
fortresses still have some relevance with the appropriate support.

Yeah, a meta is starting to form. Some builds are more frequent and reliable than others (maybe also easier to play), I just wanted to give some counterexamples of weird stuff that did alright (though I had two wasp players last game so maybe it's more common than I thought).

Originally posted by wrathtribe:

I have seen a lot of people insulting others who use those efficient strats just because... well, shocker, they works pretty well. Basically, there are many who find everything to be "problems" just because they have bad strategies themselves, spam too many units types, don't tech them well, or fail to recognize when those tactics are employed and don't know how to counter them appropriately.

True, I was a bit surprised the first game I saw defensive overlords but I got over it quickly.

Originally posted by wrathtribe:

But I agree with you and share the point of view in a way. What I mean is that I do not know either if that is an actual and objective problem (tough I strongly suspect the devs did not anticipate it that well) or if it is just that many players just like to whine and complain about anything they don't like or lack the skills to counter, which tells more about their mental capacity and maturity than they realize.

There is a lot of whining going on. I think the devs are balancing the game with the intention to let people break things before they fix it (or at least on the absolute edge of broken). Cause sometimes stuff that look broken is perfectly manageable. I think people get upset because they are more used to games having a softer type of balance.

Originally posted by wrathtribe:

Now for defensive overlords, that does means they were not properly set up if you managed to beat them with mustangs or wasps without EM or any EM/high alpha damage support (while AA helps, if the overlord has the 2 defensive skills, HP upgrades from towers, and a few level ups, maybe a HP increase item, it becomes basically immune to fast firing, low damage units if those are of inferior level as it is and can tank many of them and still win the attrition struggle being a single entity) and can even resist a fully upgraded Typhoon pair for some time provided it is max of the same level.

With AA I mean I included the tech upgrade. The wasps were ridiculously leveled and fully teched. Other units were present as well, but the meat and bone was the wasps, same for the mustang build (think I had high leveled rhinos with hp regen tech and health items in front of the mustangs though).

Idk If the overlords I have played against use the health techs, but I'll keep an eye out in future games.

[wrathtribe]

Originally posted by Arti_Sel:

There is a lot of whining going on. I think the devs are balancing the game with the intention to let people break things before they fix it (or at least on the absolute edge of broken). Cause sometimes stuff that look broken is perfectly manageable. I think people get upset because they are more used to games having a softer type of balance.

I think so too. People expect you to behave a certain way, and if you don't they cry fool. It reminds me of that scene in the TV show, Games of Thrones, where Tyrion Lannister (one heir of a rich and powerful family that was captured by another house) hires a champion in the Vale (the house that Tyrion was captured by) in the context of a trial of justice, where he requested the judgement to be settled by a fight. Bron, a proficient rogue warrior seeing an opportunity to make good coin, present himself to serve the Lannister. The Vale dispatch some heavily armored knight and while the odds seems in favor of the knight with his large shield and full armor, Bron manages to win taking advantage of the knight's predictable training and cumbersomeness by being more mobile and flexible. Then the Vale's prince, a kid, complains to him he did not fight with honor, to which Bron responds, "no. He did" pointing at the now dead knight.

Originally posted by Arti_Sel:

With AA I mean I included the tech upgrade. The wasps were ridiculously leveled and fully teched.

I understood what you meant, but yeah, only elites (meaning fully teched indeed) in a similar level range can take down a defensive overlord, otherwise they lose to attrition and if the overlord has time to recover full HP, he can do so before engaging its next fight.

[Arti_Sel]

Originally posted by wrathtribe:

Originally posted by Arti_Sel:

There is a lot of whining going on. I think the devs are balancing the game with the intention to let people break things before they fix it (or at least on the absolute edge of broken). Cause sometimes stuff that look broken is perfectly manageable. I think people get upset because they are more used to games having a softer type of balance.

I think so too. People expect you to behave a certain way, and if you don't they cry fool. It reminds me of that scene in the TV show, Games of Thrones, where Tyrion Lannister (one heir of a rich and powerful family that was captured by another house) hires a champion in the Vale (the house that Tyrion was captured by) in the context of a trial of justice, where he requested the judgement to be settled by a fight. Bron, a proficient rogue warrior seeing an opportunity to make good coin, present himself to serve the Lannister. The Vale dispatch some heavily armored knight and while the odds seems in favor of the knight with his large shield and full armor, Bron manages to win taking advantage of the knight's predictable training and cumbersomeness by being more mobile and flexible. Then the Vale's prince, a kid, complains to him he did not fight with honor, to which Bron responds, "no. He did" pointing at the now dead knight.

People with a concept of "honor" in competitive 1v1 are limiting themselves and expect others to do the same. It's a common noob idea and a dead-end for skill development.

That said, the devs should consider that optimal strategy is also enjoyable at the top level of play. That's not to say that "unit x is boring" is good feedback, but rather stuff precisely like the beacon and it's counterplay.

Originally posted by wrathtribe:

Originally posted by Arti_Sel:

With AA I mean I included the tech upgrade. The wasps were ridiculously leveled and fully teched.

I understood what you meant, but yeah, only elites (meaning fully teched indeed) in a similar level range can take down a defensive overlord, otherwise they lose to attrition and if the overlord has time to recover full HP, he can do so before engaging its next fight.

Alright then, the most important takeaway is that there seems to be viable counterplay right now. Overlords are more successful at the moment though, and better suited for a wider range of threats. But maybe when builds get more specialized and players are more aware of overlords that could change. But for now they are pretty strong, I think players can solve it though. That's my take on it.

[wrathtribe]

Originally posted by wrathtribe:

If the devs really intend to force us to play a more traditional line of defense, there are several ways to fix this. I can bring some ideas to the table - let's start with two or three -, though there of course is an infinite amount of ways you can deal with the issue, if indeed we agree this is an issue. So first, if the pathfinding allows, you can simply make the areas beyond the flanking zone inaccessible (or making the arena octagonal, which would solve the pathfinding problem). Another way, would be to have an economical penalty for losing towers (since this strategy means you want your towers to go down as early as possible).

So they did the octagon thing.

After two games, one i miserably lost for nearly -40 MMR, the other I won for +5 MMR. I must say this simple change along with the decay of experimental unit and the few other significant things they did has great results in balancing this mode in my opinion. New strategies may now arise and many units that were neglected by the player have regained value as you already see them back on the field.

While I will have to find new ways to not suck ass at this game, I welcome this new patch. Cheers.