Time to start thinking about providing hard counters to range spam.

[AltsRlame]

Yeah is gross, it takes no real skill or thought (we know this because literally you just line your tower line with as many as you can fit having no idea what they will attack). you spew out arclights, marksmen, smash out loads of chaff. Level up tech range win. Nothing can deal with it besides doing the same thing its ultra boring, its utterly mindless and the game needs to provide real tools to punish the piss out of players who over spend into such a simplistic easy tactic.

No please don;t tell me just place rhinos or balls, they get slaughtered. The only option is play hard style aggro rush every game on turn 1 and then 50-50 esque will they get charged arcs leveled up fast enough or will my balls level up fast enough. There needs to be some middle ground between mindlessly ramming rush up peopels asses, or standing at your towers spewing out 3/4 map range that clears chaff and deletes tanky units as well.

No dont tell me wasp, the arcs can shoot up when techs and a few sets of mustangs deal with them as well.

Many things in the game have solid counters, most things get punished for over building into, however spewing out arcs marksmen and storms (some combo of the three or all depending on game length) liberally layered cheap chaff has no punish all you just can do mirror the same and roll the dice.

The game is devolving into really binary play spam range at your tower or rush the living piss trying to stop the range spam from getting set up. There is little inbetween, and honestly i have no idea what the fix is but its beyond boring due to the binary nature of it.

[jnobody]

The only hard counters in the game are whirl Rhino Vs crawler, and Cant shoot up.
nearly every other matchup can be lost and won with levels or specific techs.
"No please don;t tell me just place rhinos or balls" rhinos and balls are really bad against ranged units by themselves, that's what the single target ranged units are made to shoot at. arcs can only shoot so fast, crawlers or shield fangs still do their job. you just need to kill them faster. giants are also a choice, greatly depends on what youre playing.

if you only see ranged unit spam you are playing into it, are you playing alot of slow giants or single target ranged units yourself. of course you're gonna get range spammed.
I have seen range spam in less the 10% of my games, I see mustang in 100% of my games since I always go air, that's the game, you have to counter play them until they get techs/levels to outpace you.

[Arti_Sel]

Originally posted by AltsRlame:

Many things in the game have solid counters, most things get punished for over building into, however spewing out arcs marksmen and storms (some combo of the three or all depending on game length) liberally layered cheap chaff has no punish all you just can do mirror the same and roll the dice.

If you don't stop the opponents plan then it's going to work. And the options as you mentioned is either a better focus on ranged units or some type of rush.

Originally posted by AltsRlame:

The game is devolving into really binary play spam range at your tower or rush the living piss trying to stop the range spam from getting set up. There is little inbetween, and honestly i have no idea what the fix is but its beyond boring due to the binary nature of it.

I think your focus is all wack. There are a lot of intricacies within the "rush" or "range spam". You can even "rush" slowly with something like tanks or for most of the games not even put range on your phoenixes and use shield/resurrection. But ultimately some units are either going to have the greatest range in the game or they are not.

You say it yourself, you don't know what you want and I don't know either. Maybe your overwhelming negativity indicates that you don't really want to play Mechabellum. It's like going into Mortal Kombat and being like "either I combo my opponent, he combos me or I spam fireballs" which yeah that's true if you don't like fighting games.

[some guy]

the hardcounter is to deploy forward

[some guy]

most complaints on this forum since launch are more or less bad observations, i give you so much: if you deploy back you are very strongly incentivized to play marksmen right now or give up win%. but you dont have to deploy on the line just semi forward can work depending on unit.

[puschit]

Trust me, the complaints before launch weren't any different ...

[AltsRlame]

Originally posted by jnobody:

The only hard counters in the game are whirl Rhino Vs crawler, and Cant shoot up.
nearly every other matchup can be lost and won with levels or specific techs.
"No please don;t tell me just place rhinos or balls" rhinos and balls are really bad against ranged units by themselves, that's what the single target ranged units are made to shoot at. arcs can only shoot so fast, crawlers or shield fangs still do their job. you just need to kill them faster. giants are also a choice, greatly depends on what youre playing.

if you only see ranged unit spam you are playing into it, are you playing alot of slow giants or single target ranged units yourself. of course you're gonna get range spammed.
I have seen range spam in less the 10% of my games, I see mustang in 100% of my games since I always go air, that's the game, you have to counter play them until they get techs/levels to outpace you.

guy please stop, any time you place your initial units standard your match will devolve into a range spam fest. A couple of you on the forum are just too naive to be making serious comments. You literally can place a line arclights across your towers spew out some chaff and mindlessly reach 2100 mmr. Literally using the EXACT same placement every game. There is no way to break range spam unless you play on the line with your initial deployment. There is literally no penalty for people making 12 arclights across the tower my god just watch some games, it makes ball stang look complicated.

The game is incredibly binary atm with almost nothing inbetween. you place on the line and go hyper aggro, or you place back and just spew range. there are plenty of ways to punish playing up front and almost no ways to punish piling up at your towers with long range.

you are wrong about hard counters the game is endless hard counters, you make wasps mustang ♥♥♥♥ on them, you make crawlers, vulcans ♥♥♥♥ on them, you make sledge balls ♥♥♥♥ on them, you make balls hackers ♥♥♥♥ on them, you make a fort melter ♥♥♥♥♥ on it, you make a vulcan melter ♥♥♥♥♥ on it, you make crawlers arclight ♥♥♥♥ on it, you make fangs crawlers ♥♥♥♥ on them, its endless hardcounters, that you then counter counter your next turn until you run out of deployment space for stacking.

Example i drop 3 sets of crawlers on the left, next turn you drop a vulcan it wipes them out, so i then drop a melter to auto target your vulcan delete it, so then you drop a set of fangs in front of your vulcan, so then i drop a vulcan in front of my melter kills your fangs, etc... etc.... etc... sometimes the counter in the bove might be drop a fort or rhino in front of the crawlers for the vulcan to lock onto, its a hard counter still, and then you will play something to kill my fort or rhino and you will pick whatever unit you do once you know the game knowing with 100% certain it will decimate the target because its always a hard counter. the only uncertainty is will my opponent anticipate correctly and place the counter counter.

[jnobody]

Im sorry you play this game, games are made to be fun and you are obviously not haveing it. leave.

Originally posted by AltsRlame:

you are wrong about hard counters the game is endless hard counters, you make wasps mustang ♥♥♥♥ on them, you make crawlers, vulcans ♥♥♥♥ on them, you make sledge balls ♥♥♥♥ on them, you make balls hackers ♥♥♥♥ on them, you make a fort melter ♥♥♥♥♥ on it, you make a vulcan melter ♥♥♥♥♥ on it, you make crawlers arclight ♥♥♥♥ on it, you make fangs crawlers ♥♥♥♥ on them, its endless hardcounters, that you then counter counter your next turn until you run out of deployment space for stacking.

Crawlers can beat vulcan, forts can beat melters, crawlers can beat arclights. its a matter of techs. levels, items and positioning.
how often can crawlers win, less then 1/50 games, but i've done it. forts can easily beat melters with just the smallest bit of help. arclights are slow as hell crawlers just need a tech and a little help and they are there.
If all you are gonna do is ♥♥♥♥♥ why are you here?

[same]

If the devs think players deploying too many of the same unit is a problem there are a number of things that could be done about it. Just spitballing:
- There could be a hard limit on the number of currently deployed for each unit.
- There could be a cost increase per deployment after a certain number are deployed. So by, say, the 5th deployed the cost increases by the upgrade cost for each extra, as an example. (5th costs 150, 6th: 200, 7th: 250, etc.)
- They could reduce the stats of all currently deployed units of the same type by some % for each deployed after some number. (ex. 5th one deployed reduces all their health and attack by 5%, 6th 10%, 7th: 15%, etc.)

Also, if it's just units at extreme range they think are an issue, here are some more spitballs:
- Seemingly the most obvious solution would be to nerf (by cost or effect) or remove the Elite Marksman and/or Range tech upgrades on the problem units.
- There could be a tech to discourage too much reliance on high single target damage by making something have a maximum amount of damage it can take per hit, like Armor Enhancement but for high damage instead of low.
- They could add a new device. Maybe a deployable wall that breaks line-of-sight and can't be destroyed by the problem units (or is very inefficient for them to).

I'm not saying these are good ideas or that they should be implemented. I'm saying if the devs think these are issues, there are many ways they could go about trying to solve them.

*EDIT* typo

[Kopernik]

Originally posted by same:

If the devs think players deploying too many of the same unit is a problem there are a number of things that could be done about it. Just spitballing:
- There could be a hard limit on the number of currently deployed for each unit.
- There could be a cost increase per deployment after a certain number are deployed. So by, say, the 5th deployed the cost increases by the upgrade cost for each extra, as an example. (5th costs 150, 6th: 200, 7th: 250, etc.)
- They could reduce the stats of all currently deployed units of the same type by some % for each deployed after some number. (ex. 5th one deployed reduces all their health and attack by 5%, 6th 10%, 7th: 15%, etc.)

Also, if it's just units at extreme range they think are an issue, here are some more spitballs:
- Seemingly the most obvious solution would be to nerf (by cost or effect) or remove the Elite Marksman and/or Range tech upgrades on the problem units.
- There could be a tech to discourage too much reliance on high single target damage by making something have a maximum amount of damage it can take per hit, like Armor Enhancement but for high damage instead of low.
- They could add a new device. Maybe a deployable wall that breaks line-of-sight and can't be destroyed by the problem units (or is very inefficient for them to).

I'm not saying these are good ideas or that they should be implemented. I'm saying if the devs think these are issues, there are many ways they could go about trying to solve them.

*EDIT* typo

dumpest idea i saw on this forum !!!!!!!!!!!
you want to limit our options ????????
if you belive arc + fang spam is so invincible try plaing it till you are number 1 !
there will be very quick call to reality XD
most of the time ... no all the time spams are punished very painfully just try in simulation if you have problems os see others ppl deal with it

some strats are popular at some point in time due to it being new (for now at least) that why there is so many topics about op units they wither when ppl learns how to counter it properly and so many times was it said overinvesting are alway punished

arc + fangs - try storms and fire no need for range tech they will never get to you (you dont even need any side units slow walking units are like that)

as for range spam ... longer range give upper hand in 1st shots, also it help position units in right order. most of it would disappear if hakers died, agressive rushes would kill it ( even if balls die you can alway give them mechanical division tech buy time kill units)

and it depends what ranged units are on board
marksman - chaff fangs + shield works well if there are sledgehammers place few wasps + shields ground units kill sledges and wasp will buy time before marksman starts to shoot your important units

if marks have cravlers/fangs cover tanks + balls (mech division) or mustang works quite well its hard to position them right thou sledges kills chaff (give them mech rage to shoot faster) and balls will buy time and cravlers might do some dmg too

phoenixes - similar but more mustangs/fangs here for AA well arc can kill those too if you win on frontline

[same]

Originally posted by Kopernik:

Originally posted by same:

If the devs think players deploying too many of the same unit is a problem there are a number of things that could be done about it. Just spitballing:
- There could be a hard limit on the number of currently deployed for each unit.
- There could be a cost increase per deployment after a certain number are deployed. So by, say, the 5th deployed the cost increases by the upgrade cost for each extra, as an example. (5th costs 150, 6th: 200, 7th: 250, etc.)
- They could reduce the stats of all currently deployed units of the same type by some % for each deployed after some number. (ex. 5th one deployed reduces all their health and attack by 5%, 6th 10%, 7th: 15%, etc.)

Also, if it's just units at extreme range they think are an issue, here are some more spitballs:
- Seemingly the most obvious solution would be to nerf (by cost or effect) or remove the Elite Marksman and/or Range tech upgrades on the problem units.
- There could be a tech to discourage too much reliance on high single target damage by making something have a maximum amount of damage it can take per hit, like Armor Enhancement but for high damage instead of low.
- They could add a new device. Maybe a deployable wall that breaks line-of-sight and can't be destroyed by the problem units (or is very inefficient for them to).

I'm not saying these are good ideas or that they should be implemented. I'm saying if the devs think these are issues, there are many ways they could go about trying to solve them.

*EDIT* typo

dumpest idea i saw on this forum !!!!!!!!!!!
you want to limit our options ????????
if you belive arc + fang spam is so invincible try plaing it till you are number 1 !
there will be very quick call to reality XD
most of the time ... no all the time spams are punished very painfully just try in simulation if you have problems os see others ppl deal with it

some strats are popular at some point in time due to it being new (for now at least) that why there is so many topics about op units they wither when ppl learns how to counter it properly and so many times was it said overinvesting are alway punished

arc + fangs - try storms and fire no need for range tech they will never get to you (you dont even need any side units slow walking units are like that)

as for range spam ... longer range give upper hand in 1st shots, also it help position units in right order. most of it would disappear if hakers died, agressive rushes would kill it ( even if balls die you can alway give them mechanical division tech buy time kill units)

and it depends what ranged units are on board
marksman - chaff fangs + shield works well if there are sledgehammers place few wasps + shields ground units kill sledges and wasp will buy time before marksman starts to shoot your important units

if marks have cravlers/fangs cover tanks + balls (mech division) or mustang works quite well its hard to position them right thou sledges kills chaff (give them mech rage to shoot faster) and balls will buy time and cravlers might do some dmg too

phoenixes - similar but more mustangs/fangs here for AA well arc can kill those too if you win on frontline

You seem to have missed the point I was making. Maybe read the last 2 sentences of my post again.

I was responding to OP and the idea they presented about something they thought needed to be addressed by the devs. The ideas I presented were not meant to be actual suggestions and if you took the time to read it you may have picked up on that.

[Snuggy Serian]

I do wish an additional playmode (for test purposes) where all range techs would be removed.
Even before this thread.

Edit: May or may not also a unit level limit of 3. Not saying it would be an improvement, but i find the idea curious. Because one side will not just win by levels automatically. It would end more often in slaughterfests of more units instead of a few stronger, invincible ones.
Leading possibly to more variety in every game since every counter can less snowball.