Heavy weapons a new idea

[Ragnar One Tooth]

Heavy weapons currently do a flat +100 and cancel enemy armour bonus if they have better armour, but I'm not sure if it captures how they worked in history. The Romans for instance versus the Dacians responded by adding more armour, a bit pointless if they were FOG Romans.
What was there historic effect. While a sword or spear could stab, which could be fatal. Heavy weapons often had reach adding leverage to weight, while they could kill they could also maim, leaving you limbless if you survived, and possibly dismembered in the afterlife. They have a wildness about their nature I've experienced as a reenactor. I think one of their major effects is causing fear, indeed the more you know about them the more cautious you are of them. They usually take space to swing too and are tiring to use.
So I wonder if they should give troops facing them a negative to their morale, maybe give them a greater impact effect +250 and lower melee effect say +50 What do people think.

[The Skirmish Lord]

When I first tried "Heavy Weapon" units, I was surprised that they didn't get any more of a bonus than units with spears. Essentially, Thureophoroi, Falxmen, and Thracians have ABOUT the same value in combat.

I would think units using a Falx or a Rhomphaia would have a bit more punch than spearmen. You don't , however, want to buff them so much that they equal heavy infantry on flat ground. Also, you must consider that the Falx & Rhomphaia weren't SO effective that all ancient armies rushed to start using them.

I think adding an additional +50 to the impact & leave the melee alone would probably be enough.

[The Skirmish Lord]

@Ragnar One Tooth
I posted this question on the Slitherine forum and it produced a lively discussion unlike here.
It seems many players have lost their enthusiasm for posting on the Steam forum.
You may want to check it out and add your own comments.

[PipFromSlitherine]

The Slitherine forum is certainly the 'home' forum for the game. It's certainly the place to go for robust debate on theorycrafting in the game :)

Cheers

Pip

[Ragnar One Tooth]

Thanks I'll look for it over there

[duane]

For whats its worth here, I just played against a Roman army with a Thracian army and have to agree. The heavy weapons in game do not seem to have much impact. As an example I had a cavalry general surrounded on 3 sides and had a total force of about 400 men against 95...the Roman cavalry would not break. I am no historian but that seems off to me. many other examples I can provide. IMO a heavy weapon based army like the Thracians simply can not beat a Roman army.

[SnuggleBunny]

Thracians can beat Romans. Keep in mind a good legionary unit costs 60-90, depending on the veteran status. Heavy weapon negates the armor bonus, which is a substantial portion of the cost. Thracians cost 42? 48? points, much much cheaper.

The difficulty is that heavy weapon only gives +100 on impact, while Impact Foot get +200. Thus, Thracians should leave their main infantry line (Thracians - Average, Protected, Medium Foot - Heavy Weapon) on rough ground or in forests, which will give them a great advantage against the legionaries (who are heavy foot and will suffer from Moderately Disordered). Force the Romans to attack by using the enormous masses of skirmishers available to the Thracians, which should, if well handled, thrash the outnumbered Roman ranged troops. If the Romans refuse to advance, either pick them to pieces with the skirmishers before sallying out to finish the exhausted foe, or accept that a draw is better than getting slaughtered.

Even better are the Falxmen, which are Unprotected but Superior. Thus Armored enemy troops, fight them as if unprotected themselves.

Still, this is counterintuitive and I wouldn't mind if Heavy Weapon negated all or some fixed % of an enemy units armor, as currently, equally armored heavy weapon vs non-heavy weapon fights give no anti armor bonus to heavy weapons. Not a huge deal yet, but it would be a problem when the game eventually hits the later Middle Ages.

[duane]

Originally posted by SnuggleBunny:

Thracians can beat Romans. Keep in mind a good legionary unit costs 60-90, depending on the veteran status. Heavy weapon negates the armor bonus, which is a substantial portion of the cost. Thracians cost 42? 48? points, much much cheaper.

The difficulty is that heavy weapon only gives +100 on impact, while Impact Foot get +200. Thus, Thracians should leave their main infantry line (Thracians - Average, Protected, Medium Foot - Heavy Weapon) on rough ground or in forests, which will give them a great advantage against the legionaries (who are heavy foot and will suffer from Moderately Disordered). Force the Romans to attack by using the enormous masses of skirmishers available to the Thracians, which should, if well handled, thrash the outnumbered Roman ranged troops. If the Romans refuse to advance, either pick them to pieces with the skirmishers before sallying out to finish the exhausted foe, or accept that a draw is better than getting slaughtered.

Even better are the Falxmen, which are Unprotected but Superior. Thus Armored enemy troops, fight them as if unprotected themselves.

Still, this is counterintuitive and I wouldn't mind if Heavy Weapon negated all or some fixed % of an enemy units armor, as currently, equally armored heavy weapon vs non-heavy weapon fights give no anti armor bonus to heavy weapons. Not a huge deal yet, but it would be a problem when the game eventually hits the later Middle Ages.

* I will keep trying to master the Thracians. In my last battle I tried to take advantage of the terrain as you mentioned but my opponent had a late era Roman army and had a huge contingent of Roman auxilary that had a combo of bows, dart, swords etc. I cant remember the name of them but they were devistating my men as they waited for an approach. I had to move in and as you mentioned my charges were horrible...I mean no impact at all!

[SnuggleBunny]

That would be the Auxilia Palatina: Superior, Protected, Medium Foot. Darts, Light Spear, Swordsmen. The darts give them +100 for defensive impact, so +200 combined with the light spear. When charging, they only get the light spear +100. The bows are just part of the darts poa, they don't actually distance shoot.

To be fair, the Thracian list is not contemporaneous with the late Roman lists. The game allows such matchups when you turn the date filters off, but it's not really balance tested for them.

[duane]

Originally posted by SnuggleBunny:

That would be the Auxilia Palatina: Superior, Protected, Medium Foot. Darts, Light Spear, Swordsmen. The darts give them +100 for defensive impact, so +200 combined with the light spear. When charging, they only get the light spear +100. The bows are just part of the darts poa, they don't actually distance shoot.

To be fair, the Thracian list is not contemporaneous with the late Roman lists. The game allows such matchups when you turn the date filters off, but it's not really balance tested for them.

I dont feel so bad then...it was in a knockut tourni where you could play any army. Your info has been great....thanks! sorry to the OP for taking over his thread.

[The Skirmish Lord]

@duane
I don't think you hijacked the thread; you proved the OP point !

Of course you CAN with with Thracians but you could probably win the the Imperial Kintergarten army in the proper circumstances. That's not the point. The point is that units with Heavy weapons are uninspiring because Heavy Weapons, as they are, don't really add much. Thracians are good to supplement your army and I always take a few when choosing army units.

An entire army of them, though, leaves you at a huge disadvantage where you need a LOT of map help to win against almost anyone. t's not that Thracians aren't good against Heavy Infantry; they're not supposed to be to go toe to toe with them. The problem is that Heavy Weapons units aren't really any better than most other Medium Infantry.

Bottom line; an army that relies on Heavy Weapons as they now stand, is subpar.

[SnuggleBunny]

I disagree. In the Digital League, one of the top players (ruskicanuk) used a Thracian army in the A Division of Late Antiquity, scoring 7 wins 2 losses against some of the best competitive players around using a variety of armies. Ruskicanuk mentioned relying heavily on the masses of skirmishers to break up his opponents line and shield his Thracians until they were needed.

Heavy Weapons troops are better in a grinding melee vs Spears than Swordsmen types (Swordsmen are at 50 POA vs these foes, as opposed to 100 for Heavy Weapon). Their great disadvantages at the moment is the lack of Impact vs cavalry; though most contemporary cavalry use Light Spear as opposed to Lance, which makes it a bit less of a problem; and their vulnerability to Impact Foot, which Spearmen share. However, the Heavy Weapon troops in the game right now are quite cheap.



Still, the system right now is a little awkward. Let's take some hypothetical medieval units - say:

Dismounted English Foot Knights
Superior, Armored, Heavy Foot. Heavy Weapon.

vs

Dismounted Knights
Superior, Armored, Heavy Foot. Swordsmen.

These two units would fight on even terms, despite the fact that the English Foot Knights are wielding a weapon that theoretically is effective against armor. My suspicion is that these systems will be reexamined in the future, and the Thracians/Falxmen may be repriced accordingly. Of course, we're quite a few DLCs away from this really being a problem - next DLC goes to 600ad. The DLC after that will either take us 600ad to say, 800ad or go back to do Egypt, Assyria etc. Neither DLC would really force this issue to be examined yet. Still, the main developer, Richard Bodley Scott, thoroughly reads both forums for the game, and I'm sure he has a plan for the future. Furthermore, if he does choose to keep the current system, even if you don't like it, he's the kind of guy who will at least provide a detailed explanation as to why.

[Zarkarion]

Originally posted by SnuggleBunny:

Still, the main developer, Richard Bodley Scott, thoroughly reads both forums for the game, and I'm sure he has a plan for the future.

True