Thracian heavy weapon troops are useless - can someone inform me about their utility?

[Dagoth Ur]

I do not know how to use Thracian troops (the ones with the two handed heavy weapon). How do you use them effectively?

In the Alexander campaign I try to use them to flank hoplites already in battle - but they always get owned, by everyone - even raw hoplites.

[SnuggleBunny]

They are certainly not useless, but they are situational troops. Let's look at one on one matchups first. To start with:

THRACIANS
Average, Protected, Medium Foot
Heavy Weapon

So of particular interest here is Heavy Weapon. This means +100 Impact POA vs infantry, and +100 Melee POA vs any opponents. Furthermore, HW cancels out enemy armor superiority.

Against your standard hoplites

Average, Protected, Heavy Foot
Offensive Spearmen

your Thracians are on almost equal terms. Offensive Spears get +100 on Impact and Melee vs infantry, same as the Thracians. Being Protected, the HW bonus has no effect. However, the Thracians are Medium Foot, which means they are slightly more likely to fail cohesion tests in the open against heavy infantry. On the other hand, being Medium Foot, if they can engage hoplites in broken ground they will absolutely slaughter them.

Another difference is that Heavy Weapon does not cause the Pushback effect. This can be bad or good, depending on the situation. On the bright side, your Thracians will not pushback into a situation where they will be outflanked. On the downside, enemies that Fall Back from the Thracians will have a turn to rally, bring reinforcements, or pour missiles into the Thracians.

Against Impact Troops, Thracians are at a severe disadvantage on impact, as impact troops get +100 over other infantry. Finally, the armor cancelling of heavy weapons is sometimes useful; against, say, Legionaries, you will still want to be on broken ground to disorder them; they are higher quality, and offsetting their armor advantage is not enough to iwn. Against Cataphracts, a head on charge is suicide, but if you can hurl yourself against their flanks, the armor cancelling is devastating.

to be continued

[SnuggleBunny]

That being said, they are vulnerable to cavalry charges, particularly by Lance armed cavalry in the open. They cannot compete against the true open ground heavy hitters, such as Legionaries, Warbands, and Pike Phalanxes.

However, Thracians are fairly cheap. I believe they are 42 points; certainly they are not more than 48. For that cost, you have a unit that can fight with vicious effectiveness in broken ground, and at least hold its own against hoplites, Thureophoroi, and the like in the open. They can hack down missile troops, and are brutally effective against cavalry if they can pull off flank attacks.

Regarding your remarks on flank attacks - if you are truly flanking already engaged hoplites, you will destroy them. However, to cause automatic cohesion drop, your Thracians must START their turn at a 90 degree or greater angle from the enemy unit. You cannot, say, start the turn at a 45 degree angle, maneuver to the enemy's side, and charge the flank. That does NOT count as a flank attack. Finally, even head on, Thracians should mop up Raw Hoplites, who are really awful troops. If you are losing against those, it's just bad luck, which happens to everyone.

In short - they are a cost effective unit to supplement your battle line, particularly operating on the periphery of battles away from the heaviest troops, and in non-open terrain. They do not make reliable main battle line troops, and should not be used as such.

[Dagoth Ur]

Awesome Info. I'll definitely change my tactics and see if I can get 2 max instead of 4 and be more creative with them. But I feel like if you get a 90 degree flank going - most any other troop would fare better or do a decent amount of damage.

[SnuggleBunny]

Yes, any troops are devastating in a successful flank attack. Thracians are more cost effective for that than a 70-90 pt Legion or Phalanx, but as you say, a crappy 30 pt Irregular Foot would be almost as effective for flanking. Of course, that garbage unit of Irregular foot will have a harder time surviving to get into a flanking position in the first place, and, if forced into a head on fight, will have a much worse time than the Thracians would.

[Pixel]

They are medium foot which means they can do fairly well if they hold areas of rough ground against heavier units attacking into it. They can at a minimum delay the enemy or support other units. You can also hide them in forests without worrying that they will be disordered.

[SnuggleBunny]

Actually Medium Foot are moderately disordered in forest. Heavy Foot, however, are severely disordered in forest.

[Pixel]

You are right. I guess I must've been thinking of those open paths that sometimes go through the forests. Still Thracians can be nice holding rough hill tops.

[vakarr]

Try one of the downloadable Thracian campaigns - then you will get to use superior Thracians. There should be a proportion of such types available and you will see their real potential and why they got hired so much. In other games you can try Bastarnae - who are superior but don't have any armour, they do quite well against Romans.

[Drakken]

When the Romans first met the Dacian Rhomphaia (same weapon) they where horrified by the devastating damages done by this falx and they had to upgrade their armors, armrs, legs and helmets.

Imho this weapon should be devastating on troops with no to medium armors and a litle less effective against armored soldiers.

[vakarr]

Thracian heavy weapons are also good against elephants, especially in flank attacks

[NikiforosFokas]

Snuggle Bunny's suggestion s are the best way to use them

[Geffalrus]

Originally posted by Drakken:

When the Romans first met the Dacian Rhomphaia (same weapon) they where horrified by the devastating damages done by this falx and they had to upgrade their armors, armrs, legs and helmets.

Imho this weapon should be devastating on troops with no to medium armors and a litle less effective against armored soldiers.

I wand to second this suggestion, especially in light of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3tuD04rS2w&index=42&list=WL&t=10s

The Rhomphaia is a long cutting blade that focuses less on weight and percussion, and more on cutting power and speed. Just the sort of weapon you'd want if you're a Thracian facing mostly unarmored skirmishers in close combat. Obviously it's length would have some benefit when facing cavalry in a melee (though not on the charge).

If anything, those Thracian troops should be absolute murder against low armor infantry and cavalry, and decently countered by armor.

[NikiforosFokas]

thanks for the video

[Champin Playr]

I can confirm that those guys just awesome against cataphracts

[vakarr]

I'd like to see the guys in that video advancing wearing a helmet and greaves while carrying a thureos and javelin in addition to the rhomphaia (which had a small ring on it next to the hilt to attach a cord to make it easier to carry). Then they have to throw the javelin, put the shield on their back, then attack. It's a slower weapon than a sword or spear, both of which could be used for a stab in the time this weapon was used for a slash. The slash laid the user open to such an attack and also, as it was a two handed weapon, meant they couldn't use a shield. That made the user vulnerable to javelins being thrown during the final rush or to missiles. The last game update made this weapon more effective against cavalry by the way.