Thureophoroi somewhat useless?

[[Grognard]_Seimour]

I've been trying a campaign as Pergamon and I can't say I am impressed by them including my previous experiences. Both them and the thorakitai seem to get thrashed very quickly by warbands or other infantries. Am I using them wrong or are they meant to be some sort of hellenistic failed experiment?

[The Skirmish Lord]

You can't really compare Heavy Infantry to Medium Infantry. You have to give the Thureophoroi an edge like putting them on a hill or on rough ground.

[[Grognard]_Seimour]

I tried doing that and the Macedonian phalanx basically pushed me off the rough grounds and hill I was standing on like I wasn't even there. My conclusion is that Pergamon is disadvantaged by having to field most of their infantry as such. I hope they get some thracians in the update.

Following question, can thureophoroi be upgraded to thorakitai in the campaign?

[Zarkarion]

Originally posted by Grognard_Seimour:

I tried doing that and the Macedonian phalanx basically pushed me off the rough grounds and hill I was standing on like I wasn't even there.

If you were standing on rough ground, then you were unlucky, or the pike were Veterans. In woods you would murder them.

However, a gentle hill isn't enough to overcome the pikes' advantage. Ideally you want a rough hill with difficult slopes.

My conclusion is that Pergamon is disadvantaged by having to field most of their infantry as such.

Which is why they probably recruited pikemen as soon as they got given former Seleucid lands by the Romans after Magnesia.

Following question, can thureophoroi be upgraded to thorakitai in the campaign?

No, because there were never that many thorakitai historically, so we did not include it as an upgrade path for the much more numerous thureophoroi. The armour does not make a massive difference anyway except vs shooting.

[[Grognard]_Seimour]

I was very unlucky indeed but still won the the battle through cavalry. I saw that later Pergamon has pikemen but their numbers are so pitiful they are actually a liability when mixed with your more mobile lines. So Pergamon has no access to thorakitai whatsoever then? I hope they get thracians in the update though.

[SnuggleBunny]

Why should they get Thracians? Do you have some evidence that they employed them in any numbers?

[[Grognard]_Seimour]

Originally posted by SnuggleBunny:

Why should they get Thracians? Do you have some evidence that they employed them in any numbers?

I can't quote anything specifically. I merely remember reading that they used them as mercenaries. They are literally right next to Thrace which was well known for its mercenary exportations. It's very much like they made use of galatian mercenaries, especially after subduing them.

[SnuggleBunny]

Well I wouldn't expect any changes without specific evidence. In any case, Thureophoroi are not bad troops, and Thracians aren't any better, just more useful in different situations.

Overall, though, the Permagene army is a sort of jack of all trades, master of none. It has phalanxes, but none veteran, and not very many. It has warbands, but only a few. And it has masses of Thureophoroi. They are certainly useful units on the periphery of a battle, or defending forests or rough ground, but they are garbage main battle line troops, really only superior to the Light Spear, Swordsmen types.

[[Grognard]_Seimour]

Well I guess it's time for me to will my entire kingdom to more competent armies. Wink wink.