Question about the the Battle of Thymbra

[Gurkhal]

After many delays I've played the Battle of Thymbra as Lydia and it left me bewildered when I looked at the pre-battle briefing and the actual conduct of the battle and the results.

In the briefing its said that the Persians fears the Lydian heavy cavalry, so they did this trick with the camels and from Ancient Greek history I came with an impression that hoplites, especially Armoured Hoplites, would have and advantage over the Persian Sparabara in hand-to-hand combat. So I assume that ok, the Persians will have fire power but if I can make it into close combat and keep myself from being flanked or have key units reduced by missile fire, I should be able to win a prolonged melee slugging match with both Lydian cavalry and Greek hoplites (I kind of assume that the irregular infantry would not be able to stand up to the Persians, of course) against their Persian adversaries when fighting head-on and with no flanking or such taking place.

But what happened is that I take a medium ammount of punishment from the missiles before I bring home my charge, but I find that the Persian cavalry generally outperforms the Lydian in hand-to-hand and the Sparabara give as good as they get against my hoplites, and kind of butcher everyone else. Resulting in that I was defeated mostly in melee fighting with a punishing missile support helping me on my way.

Now I come here to understand why. I don't want to whine about the game, which I find very good, but I would like to understand some of the mechanics that left my, according to the briefing, stronger cavalry and apparently not very powerful hoplites, losing against enemy formations which I from the information given to me I would thought I had an edge over in hand-to-hand combat.

PS: I'd like however to say that I am glad that the Persians was not pushovers but represented as a capable military power, as they should be considered.

[SnuggleBunny]

Thymbra is very winnable as Lydians, though it is certainly a bloodbath. I'll look at the infantry and cavalry engagements separately, as the two really only come together at the end of the battle.

Infantry first.

As you say, the Irregulars are trash. Their melee stats are slightly inferior to Sparabara, (Lightly Protected vs Protected), but the casualties they take from arrows lead to a substantial -strength modifier that reduced units suffer from.

The Raw hoplites are also trash. Their low quality ensures that they tend to lose impact with even regular Sparabara, who are at least average quality, and whose Light Spear attribute matches the hoplites Offensive Spear at +100 on Impact. So, the Raw Hoplites might bounce off and disrupt, at which point they take still more arrow fire. If they can manage to survive Impact and make it into melee, they can do okay against Sparabara in open terrain; low quality, and -strength modifier from arrow casualties, make it an approximately even fight.

As for the armored hoplites, they would certainly overpower the Sparabara. Unfortunately, the Persian center is composed of Immortals.

Armored Hoplites:

Armored
Average
Heavy Foot
Offensive Spear

Immortals:

Protected
Superior
Medium Foot (or was it bowmen? Hmm.. pretty similar for our purposes though)
Light Spear, 50% Swordsmen

to be continued...

[SnuggleBunny]

So, the Armored Hoplites will take casualties from arrows. Their armor helps, but the Superior quality of Immortals means more accurate shooting. That means your armored hoplites will be at -strength modifier in the melee. Furthermore, Impact is primarily psychological, and does not take armor into account, only Impact POA and quality. Light Spear and Offensive Spear are both +100 on Impact, so equal, but the Immortals are Superior quality. This leaves your hoplites at risk of bouncing, or disrupting and bouncing, to take more arrows; a dangerous position. On the other hand, if they to get into melee, they are at a moderate advantage. Armor and Offensive Spear vs Protected and 50% Swords is a substantial advantage, somewhat set off by the Immortals Superior quality.

Average quality leaves your heavies slightly likelier to fail cohesion tests, a chance increased by casualties from arrow fire. The Immortals, being Medium Foot, are somewhat likelier to fail in cohesion against heavy foot in open terrain, but Superior offsets this somewhat.

So basically, once within range of the Persian archers, the Lydian infantry line must hurl itself into contact as rapidly as possible, and then pray for support from a cavalry wing before the vulnerable Irregular Foot/Raw Hoplites break and run.

Next up, the cavalry...

[SnuggleBunny]

The Cavalry:

So the cavalry situation is also asymmetric. Your cavalry are

Superior
Armored
Lancers, Swordsmen

the Persians are a mix of

Superior
Armored
Bow, Swordsmen

and

Camelry
Average
Armored
Bow, Swordsmen

The Camelry slightly disorder friendlies and moderately disorder your cavalry. Your horsemen will crush the Persian armored horse archers if they can achieve impact away from the camels. The difficulty is in separating the two enemy groups. To achieve this, max out your purchase of infantry skirmishers. Use your archers and slingers to weaken the camelry and drive away as many as you can, and to absorb arrows while you get your lancers into position. The enemy will not evade if you charge from 1 square away; if you charge from two, they will evade, and you have a chance to catch them in the rear for an automatic cohesion drop. So, in short, weaken the camels, distract and break up the Persian cavalry with your own lights, and, at the decisive moment, charge with all your lancers.

If things go according to plan, Mid-battle you'll probably have a mutual bloodbath in the center as your infantry begins to crumble on the wings thanks to sub par troops and the arrow storm. You might have a slight advantage in the center thanks to your armored hoplites, especially as the Persians will probably be low on arrows at this point. One flank will probably be an indecisive swirling cavalry engagement, with both forces falling apart. The key will be ensuring heavy enough skirmisher support that you can get the perfect Lancer charge to crush at least one end of the Persian line.

If you can get even 2-3 Lancers to intervene in the infantry struggle, you can cause a chain rout and ride down the line, crushing unit after weakened unit of Persians. If you screw up the cavalry action, you will have two swirling indecisive cavalry melees in which your Lancers gradually get shot out of the saddle, as your infantry flees the field.

Edit: PS, the Veteran Hoplites present in some other lists are quite capable of overwhelming the Immortals in open terrain, but such troops are not present at Thymbra

[Gurkhal]

Thank you for taking the time to write this. I've been reading with great interest and taking notes for a future re-run of the battle, which hopefully should end with a Lydian victory.

[Gurkhal]

Ok, I've replayed the battle with much better results this time. The change I did was to move my skirmishers to the flanks to clear the way for the cavalry. It didn't exactly work out according to plan but I was not as bogged down in the flanks as before and could give at least some cavalry support to my infantry and I think that in honestly I have some better die rolls as many Sparabara formations seems to have crumbled under the hoplites and been driven off the field.

So thanks, SnuggleBunny, for helping me on the path to victory.

Final results from the rematch was as following.


Persians

Dead: 4576

Wounded: 5684

Captured or Deserted: 7860

Total: 18120


Lydians

Dead: 3044

Wounded: 6146

Captured or Deserted: 692

Total: 9882