Bow/sling and height

[Olaf]

So these can fire over troops. What is the minimum height they can shoot over troops? Say a warband is at a height of 50 `directly front of an archer unit, which is at height 100, can the archers shoot over it?

[SnuggleBunny]

I don't think the amount of height matters, as long as it is higher. I think even at 25 they should be able to fire.

[Olaf]

Ok I read the manual and it says only artillery can fore over troops. Correct me if im wrong but I do remember one game where I could fire over my own troops.

[X-the Unknown]

The manual is already outdated.

[mikec_81]

Artillery can fire over friendlies on the same elevation. Other ranged units cannot

[The Skirmish Lord]

@Olaf
Patch 1.0.2 added the ability of archers to shoot over troops when on higher ground and I don't think they changed the manual.

This is from the patch notes
- Bows can now shoot over other units if on higher ground

It didn't say anything about slingers but they may have been included. It also didn't say how much higher the archers had to be.

[Zarkarion]

It is only bows, and there is no required height differential except that they be higher.

[The Skirmish Lord]

@Zarkarion
Thanks for the clarification

[Drewsko]

so slingers on a hill cant fire over spearmen guarding them at the bottom of the hill onto the oncoming enemy cavalry?

[Zarkarion]

Originally posted by Drewsko:

so slingers on a hill cant fire over spearmen guarding them at the bottom of the hill onto the oncoming enemy cavalry?

No, only bows.

[Drewsko]

tahts unfair eh?

[Captain_Narol]

War is not fair.

[Zarkarion]

Originally posted by Drewsko:

tahts unfair eh?

Sling shot have a much flatter trajectory than arrows. Even from a slope it would be difficult to fire safely over your own men. (And if you can find any historical example of it happening, we would be interested to hear of it. Primary sources only please.).

[Drewsko]

http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/military-history/ancient-weapons-the-sling/


Two years later at Cannae, Hannibal once again ordered his Balearic slingers and other skirmishers to confront the Roman skirmishers at the beginning of the battle. The Roman skirmishers included Cretan archers as well as light-armed, javelin-wielding velites. The light infantry spearmen of the Carthaginians would have been similarly armed as the Roman velites, and due to the shorter range of the javelins on both sides, the two forces advanced in front of the other skirmishers and confronted each other at the center of the battlefield. The Cretan archers fired on the Carthaginian army from behind the velites, as did the Balearic slingers from behind their javelin men, but with much greater effectiveness due to the increased range of the Balearic slings. Because of the large, heavy arrowheads preferred by the Cretans, their arrows were only accurate at a distance of a little more than 442 feet, while the sling could launch projectiles at least 492 feet, and most likely even farther due to the incredible skill of the Balearic slingers.

[Zarkarion]

As I said, primary sources only. Secondary sources add their own interpretations ( i.e. make things up).

The primary sources for the battle of Cannae are Polybios, Livy and Appian. I cannot see any mention in these of the Balearic slingers being deployed behind the javelinmen to shoot overhead.

Polybios:

"At the same time Hannibal brought his Balearic slingers and javelinmen across the river, and stationed them in advance of his main body; which he led out of their camp, and, getting them across the river at two spots, drew them up opposite the enemy. On his left wing, close to the river, he stationed the Iberian and Celtic horse opposite the Roman cavalry; and next to them half the Libyan heavy-armed foot; and next to them the Iberian and Celtic foot; next, the other half of the Libyans, and, on the right wing, the Numidian horse. Having now got them all into line he advanced with the central companies of the Iberians and Celts; and so arranged the other companies next these in regular gradations, that the whole line became crescent-shaped, diminishing in depth towards its extremities: his object being to have his Libyans as a reserve in the battle, and to commence the action with his Iberians and Celts."

"The battle was begun by an engagement between the advanced guard of the two armies; and at first the affair between these light-armed troops was indecisive. But as soon as the Iberian and Celtic cavalry got at the Romans, the battle began in earnest, and in the true barbaric fashion: for there was none of the usual formal advance and retreat; but when they once got to close quarters, they grappled man to man, and, dismounting from their horses, fought on foot. But when the Carthaginians had got the upper hand in this encounter and killed most of their opponents on the ground,— because the Romans all maintained the fight with spirit and determination,—and began chasing the remainder along the river, slaying as they went and giving no quarter; then the legionaries took the place of the light-armed and closed with the enemy. For a short time the Iberian and Celtic lines stood their ground and fought gallantly; but; presently overpowered by the weight of the heavy-armed lines, they gave way and retired to the rear, thus breaking up the crescent."

Livy:

"At dawn Hannibal first sent his light contingents, including the Baleares, across the river, then followed with his main force, drawing up in their battle positions the various contingents as they reached the other side."

The detailed dispositions of the non-light troops are now described, but not those of the light troops.

Then:

"The battle-cry rang out; the auxiliaries leapt forward, and with the light troops the action began."

No further details of the dispositions or actions of the light troops.

Appian:

"When the trumpets sounded the foot-soldiers raised a shout and the archers, slingers, and light-armed troops advanced and began the battle. After them the legions took up the work. Now began a great slaughter and a great struggle, each side contending valiantly."

It rather appears that the bit about overhead shooting has been added by the author of the secondary source.

[Captain_Narol]

* slow claps at Zarkarion's erudition *