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You simply don't have access to enough Veteran Hoplite and Siege Engines. Instead you're forced to field way too many medium infantry. The result is an army that feels more horde than hoplite. Remember, the Greeks invented siege engines.
Just 1 or 2 more Veteran Hoplites and Siege Engines could turn this army from comic relief, into the obsolete legends the designer envisioned. They'll still never be tier 1, but at least they'll have a fighting chance in multiplayer.
What's balanced for new players can be out of balanced for veterans, and vice versa.
It may not be relevant to your example, but note that a hill being 200 does not automatically give you +100 POA. What matters is the height difference between the squares the two units are on.
So if a height 200 hill rises straight out of the plain, the slopes will be 100, so the the height difference would be 100, so you would get +100 POA.
However, if the 200 hill rises from a 100 hill, the slopes would be 150 and hence the height different is only 50 and you would only get +25 POA.
Besides Romans, there aren't many units of that quality type in the game. And it makes sense that professional Greek soldiers would be equal to Hastati.
Of course their cost would increase to reflect the improvement, perhaps increasing from 48 to 54 points.
This across-the-board change of Mercenary Hoplites is actually the one I'd like to see most, because it'd also make Carthage's choice between African Spearmen and Mercenary Hoplites a more interesting one.
Previous Greek contact with "barbarians" was against Thracians, Illyrians and Persians, all of whom fought in an entirely different style to the Gauls.
That said, we are nerfing warbands somewhat in the next patch. The nerf won't alter their historically feared impact effect, but will mean they will fade away faster if they fail to disrupt their opponents at impact - which is also historical.
Im looking forward to it, really.
Like i said in my previous posts, they still should have their brutal charge but weaker, untill its 'assymetricaly balanced' and less of a coin flip... or alternatively give the hoplites a + against charge
We know very little about gauls fighting the hoplites, but when the romans were defeated, they were outnumbered and also were charged in the flank as far as i know.
When the gauls invaded greece, brennus took heavy casualties charging hoplites upfront at thermopylae.
So if you want to go a historical route why dont the hoplites get a + against wildly charging infantry, or a lesser chance to get fragmented, hey since the hoplites often had a pushing match against other hoplites why dont give them a lesser chance to be pushed back you could limit their capability of maneuver a little more in contrast, if possible. I would have to read in the manual if hoplites are already hindered in movement in some way.
Alot of possibilites.
Just right now greeks are too weak, imho
That hasn't been my experience, so I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. The elegant game rules do a brilliant job of representing ancient warfare.
One of the biggest stumbling points for unhappy players seems to be unrealistic expectations. Either they have misconceptions about how things went, or they mistakenly insist what commonly happened should always happen. There can only ever be:
What commonly happened
What uncommonly happened
What rarely happened
These are all accurately modeled in the game. Time and again, veteran players have proven this to be true. The system doesn't have any gamebreaking flaws. The issues that exist are just quirks of a game that has so many moving parts. There is no such thing as a "perfect" set of rules. Just tradeoffs between simplicity vs complexity, random vs absolute, realism vs fun.
Historically, it's not so much that Hoplites had gotten weaker, it was more a case of others having gotten better. From Carthage to Rome, spearmen had learned to fight just like Hoplites, effectively normalizing the advantage they'd once held.
My issues with the early Greek army list is more about fun than realism. It's always going to be a matter of opinion how many Veteran Hoplites an army could have fielded, or exactly how skilled your typical Mercenary Hoplite was.
Zarkarion's early Greek army list isn't wrong. I just think it throttles the army a bit too much, limiting you to too typical a force. I think many players would enjoy an army list that could also depict Greece in all its faded glory.
Butterfly Effect
Big things have small beginnings. - Lawerence of Arabia
It may seem too simple and subtle, but the changes I suggested to the Greek army list would make a big difference. Think of it like this, how different would a battle play out if, instead of one of your units routing one of the enemy's did?
Interesting read, also would you tell me which greek army list you fielded against the german tribes?
When I say early Greek army list, that's the Hoplites I'm talking about.
Often the Gauls seem willing to wait several turns before moving, and even then parts of their army will not commit. By comparison, the Germanic army launches itself enmass from the first turn and doesn't let up. Plus the Germanic army uses tons of warbands so the difference was stunning.
I was wondering if anyone else had noticed the same thing.
I think they are simulating the furor teutonicus with that much warbands. Those were hard matchups, quite different from gauls... very very hard but very fun.
I think once you stop the charge with everything you have youre good to go and they are lecking everywhere else i feel.
I have to try it with the new patch later or tomorrow.
Will report back.
I actually did an AAR against a live opponent (though he wasn't exactly a great player) which can be found here http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=493&t=80187
Warbands and most Heavy Foot that also have high Impact PoA such as Romans Legionaires and Warbands regardless of quality.
1) They are very scary head on and have a low skill floor in terms of using them. The player who has Warbands simply has to drive them head on into the enemy army and almost no other unit type can take them on 1 v 1.
2) This comes at the cost of being super expensive. Warbands cost 63 points and their superior versions cost 81 points. That means they will almost always be outnumbered in terms of how many elements are on the field. Their may be a lot of manpower packed in a Warbands unit but you can field relatively few of them compared to Hoplites of any catagory.
3) They come with severe drawbacks that a human opponent can and will punish to the extreme. The first is that they are unmanouverable meaning that they don't get a free 45 degree wheel and it makes them susceptible to being sidestepped. The second is that they chase broken enemy units frequently.
It also means that even after they do their job and punch through the enemy line, it takes them up to several turns to reorganize and present themselves as a threat to another enemy unit. Time that you might not have since they might be carving up the softer part of your army.
4) The trick is to mitigate the threat these units present. The most obvious is to not march up in a line of battle and offer them a big juicy target to charge in open terrain. You are playing right into their strengths.
They have one arrow in their quiver. The charge over open terrain. This is when they get their ridiculous +200 PoA and Deep ranks bonus. If they can't disrupt or fragment your unit on the charge, they become very pedestrian units.
If you have inferior heavy foot yourself like Hoplites, it is often better to find rough terrain to hold a line or find sections with high ground which would give you an advantage. While rough terrain isn't good for your hoplites either, it penalizes the side with the higher PoA significantly more by making the combat outcomes draw heavy.
You can also counter them by using medium foot found in most lists and sit them in rough terrain. A 40 point medium spear unit can easily hold an 81 point Superior Warband in rough terrain and beat them.
5) Don't try to "out elite" them if your list doesn't can't do it, instead go wide and deep. For example, don't be scared of Superior Warbands and think that you must max out on Veteran Hoplites and try to fight elite vs elite in the open. Once again this is playing in their hands. Superior Warband armies WANT their Superior Warbands to fight the other side's best unit, because they can win.
Instead, get a ton of cheaper but lesser units like citizen hoplites and hoplite recruits that cost half as much as Superior Warbands do and simply feed them expendable units or use them in reserve to punish Warbands that push back your infantry line and expose their flanks.
Any heavy or medium foot unit charging the flanks for an already engaged enemy foot unit in the flanks causes and automatic morale drop that cannot be avoided. It could be Hoplite recruits doing the charging, the game doesn't care.
If you do invest in expensive units, point them at the softer part of the enemy army instead of trying to match them one for one.
edit:
6) One more thing I see a lot of newer players do. Don't initiate combat against the enemy's dangerous units. I don't know why but I keep seeing people charge my Roman Legionaries or my Warbands or my Pikes with units that cannot hope to win. All you are doing is speeding up the destruction of your own army and giving your opponent the opportunity to use their best units repeatedly on different parts of your army.
Delay combat with the units facing these dangerous foes by any means necessary. Back up, even if it means a morale check. If your Hoplites charge enemy Warband units, they probably going to lose anyways and get disrupted or fragmented regardless. Use this time to go after the weak part of their army of setup a flank move around their shorter line.
By choosing to engage in combat ASAP, you are speeding up the destruction of your own army and giving your opponent the chance to use his best units against multiple parts of your own army.
TLDR version.
The player who is opposing Warbands, or the Romans who are the other offender in the scary impact heavy foot catagory, has a much more complicated job than the person who is playing the Impact Heavy foot. But these units are expensive, use terrain and numbers to your advantage.
On the store page it says:
FEATURES
Accurate simulation of Ancient battle in the last three centuries of the pre-Christian era.
The way to beat warbands you described is not. A hoplite phalanx was usually 1 line. And it usually did not win by outnumbering and outflanking a unit, rather it won by holding the enemy in place pushing through his formation.
Its not accurate to place the hoplites in rough ground just to counter barbarians. And its not fun either.
If youre really really really unlucky like me the gauls smash their warbands against your hoplites and rout them in 2 turns! No flanking maneuver in the world is going to save you from this.
Still have to play the patch... i was occupied with still ongoing multiplayer matches.
Edit: I found them even worse than swiss pikes in pike and shot, with those i could deal and! They were historically accurate in their performance and usage.