Hoplite phalanx, not sarissa, too weak against gauls / charge.

[WhatIsLove?]

Hello, all.

I want to make it simple.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1193210719

Greek hoplites cant deal with gauls at all. I was on a hill, waited almost all game for the enemy untill i decided to lure them in, and in 3 or 4 rounds they blew me from that hill.

http://sites.psu.edu/thehopliteexperience/wp-content/uploads/sites/10736/2014/04/00006081.jpg

These guys are made to take a charge... Its the 'western greece army' that still uses hoplite phalanx instead of sarissa phalanx however, untrained gauls, charging uphill, against those guys waiting in formation, should not be that easy.

I mean okay the germans had the furor teutonicus and were famous for that, ( why is the germanic army list so meh :( )

The gauls might be ment to be strong at a charge too. But against hoplites? You run into this formation like a barbarian and get your face stabbed by 3-4 spears from different rows of the formation, while shields protect each indivdiual.

Cant we have a charge defence bonus with hoplites or something? They are ment to take a charge..

Thoughts? also please note, that the best hoplites i had were already routed in that screenshot.

Edit: as you can see http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1194974144

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1194974260

Its very possible to defeat the romans for example, but those barbarian charges? damn...

Edit 2: New patch seems to be very enjoyable in hoplites vs warbands, i will test it more.

Edit 3: very satisified with patch 1.0.2 so far. Still a struggle ( as it should be) but seems to be very balanced. I had alot of fun :)

[X-the Unknown]

Hoplites of this era were not the Hoplites of the persian/Spartans of yesteryear war. Mostly just farmers and peasants in this era.

[WhatIsLove?]

Originally posted by X-the Unknown:

Hoplites of this era were not the Hoplites of the persian/Spartans of yesteryear war. Mostly just farmers and peasants in this era.

Nobody talks about spartans here

hoplites by definition were always farmers / citizen soldiers as there was low population in greece. The hoplites of this era are not different in that regard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoplite

The formation they used made them strong, not individuality. Although in game, they cant take a charge, even tho they fight in the phalanx formation, which is made to stop charges.

This is what this thread is about, go and play with hoplites vs gauls which were btw mostly, farmers in everyday life also, as were the germans and youll lose.

Standing professional armies, like rome had, were a exception, not the rule.

[Captain_Narol]

That's historically coherent with the way the Gauls stormed the Greeks when they invaded Greece in 279 BC :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae_(279_BC)

[WhatIsLove?]

Originally posted by Captain Narol:

That's historically coherent with the way the Gauls stormed the Greeks when they invaded Greece in 279 BC :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae_(279_BC)

Thanks for the good read, but i cant find anything that said there 'gauls stormed the greece hoplite, defending a hill, and routed them of the field' like cowards.

quote from your link


"During the initial assault, Brennus' forces suffered heavy losses."

we have to change it to, "during the initial assault Brennus totally destroyed and routed the greek force", to match what happens ingame

More quotes "Brennus pushed on to Delphi where he was defeated and forced to retreat, after which he died of wounds sustained in the battle. His army fell back to the river Spercheios where it was routed by the Thessalians and Malians."

He lured them away from a narrow pass and then defeated them, after that he was crushed.

They did not lure me from the hill, they just took it.

Thats the difference, the hoplites are ment to take a charge, not beeing routed by a charge.

The gauls were ultimately defeated, i dont see how you could ingame. Also if thats the argument we are going to use then there will be armies that are usable and armies that are totally and utterly obsolete just because.

The hoplites should have a fighting chance, but defending a hill against untrained tribesmen in close hoplite formation and getting utterly crushed without anything you can do about it, is not fun.

Fun are what if scenarios, what if the macedonians and seleukids had better generals against the romans, what if?

If the romans are ment to win against them, why play? Well ingame its very possible of macedonians to win against romans
But in this scenario... i dont see how you could win that?

[SnuggleBunny]

I believe the devs may make a slight tweak, but don't expect anything drastic. I (and others) have found warband armies quite beatable. Here is a monstrous thread addressing this issue at the Slitherine forums:

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=477&t=80086

One final note: if you call Gauls untrained tribesmen, then you should call the Greeks untrained farmers. The Spartans are only hoplites we know of who regularly engaged in formation drill, and weapons training was also individual, not a state initiative. There's a reason the citizen army model was largely abandoned during the Hellenistic era.

[WhatIsLove?]

Originally posted by SnuggleBunny:

I believe the devs may make a slight tweak, but don't expect anything drastic. I (and others) have found warband armies quite beatable. Here is a monstrous thread addressing this issue at the Slitherine forums:

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=477&t=80086

One final note: if you call Gauls untrained tribesmen, then you should call the Greeks untrained farmers. The Spartans are only hoplites we know of who regularly engaged in formation drill, and weapons training was also individual, not a state initiative. There's a reason the citizen army model was largely abandoned during the Hellenistic era.

Well to be honest i was kinda fed up, i know that the gauls were not some unwashed, barbarians that lived in the woods, they had culture, money and fine weapon smiths it should be possible for them to beat the greeks but hey... not like this. Just no. I also acknowledged that hoplites were farmers, and citizen soldiers, i know that.

Standing armies were the exception and most armies were farmers/citizens in times of peace, but that doesnt mean that hoplites, which were designed to hold a line, should get fragmented and pushed back in the charge and routed 2 rounds later with nothing you can do about it, especially since you have only 1 cavalry unit avaiable in campaign in the first battle.

Would you share your wisdom with me in how to beat the gauls, with the greek army list, that doesnt give you sarissas? I would be very interested.

Also thanks for the link i will look into that.

[Quasicide]

"Some phalanxes broke and ran at -- or even before -- first contact with the enemy, and others endured but a brief duel..." - Hoplites at War: A Comprehensive Analysis of Heavy Infantry Combat by Paul M. Bardunias

I accept the challenge of Hoplites vs Gauls, and I'll let you know how it goes. I'm coming back with my shield in hand, or I'm coming back with them carrying my dead body on it!

[SnuggleBunny]

I just played a single player battle on governor difficulty, Western Greeks vs the later Gallic list, and won 48-23. For my army comp, I got all 3 Thureophoroi, my 1 Veteran hoplites, maxed out on citizen hoplites, grabbed a couple mercenary hoplites, 1 light jav horse, 3 light javs, 1 slingers, 1 archers, my 1 armoured cavalry, 1 heavy artillery, and my 2 raw hoplites.

I formed my citizen and veteran hoplites in the center in a long line. The citizen hoplites are undrilled and lack the free 45 degree turn, but the center of the line tends not to do much maneuvering. I placed my mercenary hoplites and thureophoroi on the flanks, the latter in rough ground. My raw hoplites waited in reserve, 1 tile behind the main line at a 90 degree angle.

Basically, my skirmishers quickly saw off the outnumbered gallic skirmishers, before concentrating, with the artillery and my single cavalry unit, on routing the Gallic cavalry. While this was going on, the Gallic infantry slammed into my hoplites, who were formed on a gentle rise. 2 of my hoplites disrupted and were pushed back. My raw hoplites charged these warbands in the flank, disrupting them in turn. The rest of the battle was an infantry slogging match, until both Gallic flanks began to crumble, one being wrapped around by Thueophoroi, the other being hit by my surviving cavalrymen. Any warbands that fell back from the melee were quickly surrounded by skirmishers and pelted with javelins and catapult stones, forcing them to either charge back uphill or stand under the fire.

It wasn't an easy battle; having more cavalry and Thureophoroi would have made it easier; but the hoplites do a fine job of holding the line if they survive impact.

A word on hills - the hills in game look larger than they actually are, so players can easily see them. Any slopes less than 100 heigh high only give +25 POA, as these are in reality low slopes, that give some, but not a decisive, advantage.

My attempts to use Thureophoroi to stop the enemy didn't work as well as I'd hoped - the enemy brought quite a few loose order warbands. The warbands that broke through my line wasted time pursuing my fleeing men as I maneuvered reserves to plug the gap or hit them in the flank.

Like I said, I believe the devs do intend to very subtly tone down warbands, but it's already possible to defeat them, even with hoplites.

[WhatIsLove?]

Originally posted by SnuggleBunny:

I just played a single player battle on governor difficulty, Western Greeks vs the later Gallic list, and won 48-23. For my army comp, I got all 3 Thureophoroi, my 1 Veteran hoplites, maxed out on citizen hoplites, grabbed a couple mercenary hoplites, 1 light jav horse, 3 light javs, 1 slingers, 1 archers, my 1 armoured cavalry, 1 heavy artillery, and my 2 raw hoplites.

I formed my citizen and veteran hoplites in the center in a long line. The citizen hoplites are undrilled and lack the free 45 degree turn, but the center of the line tends not to do much maneuvering. I placed my mercenary hoplites and thureophoroi on the flanks, the latter in rough ground. My raw hoplites waited in reserve, 1 tile behind the main line at a 90 degree angle.

Basically, my skirmishers quickly saw off the outnumbered gallic skirmishers, before concentrating, with the artillery and my single cavalry unit, on routing the Gallic cavalry. While this was going on, the Gallic infantry slammed into my hoplites, who were formed on a gentle rise. 2 of my hoplites disrupted and were pushed back. My raw hoplites charged these warbands in the flank, disrupting them in turn. The rest of the battle was an infantry slogging match, until both Gallic flanks began to crumble, one being wrapped around by Thueophoroi, the other being hit by my surviving cavalrymen. Any warbands that fell back from the melee were quickly surrounded by skirmishers and pelted with javelins and catapult stones, forcing them to either charge back uphill or stand under the fire.

It wasn't an easy battle; having more cavalry and Thureophoroi would have made it easier; but the hoplites do a fine job of holding the line if they survive impact.

A word on hills - the hills in game look larger than they actually are, so players can easily see them. Any slopes less than 100 heigh high only give +25 POA, as these are in reality low slopes, that give some, but not a decisive, advantage.

My attempts to use Thureophoroi to stop the enemy didn't work as well as I'd hoped - the enemy brought quite a few loose order warbands. The warbands that broke through my line wasted time pursuing my fleeing men as I maneuvered reserves to plug the gap or hit them in the flank.

Like I said, I believe the devs do intend to very subtly tone down warbands, but it's already possible to defeat them, even with hoplites.

Hmhm, interesting thanks for that, again im not mr.knowitall and iam willing to try out new things and be proven wrong, perhaps it was just rngjesus doing its thing, as the hill i placed myself on was 200 and the gauls attacked from 100 and less. Perhaps i was really unlucky that 4 + hoplites fragmented on the charge. I will try this again and see if i can make it happen.

Originally posted by Quasi Z:

"Some phalanxes broke and ran at -- or even before -- first contact with the enemy, and others endured but a brief duel..." - Hoplites at War: A Comprehensive Analysis of Heavy Infantry Combat by Paul M. Bardunias

I accept the challenge of Hoplites vs Gauls, and I'll let you know how it goes. I'm coming back with my shield in hand, or I'm coming back with them carrying my dead body on it!

Me too, good luck. I will come back and post my new thoughts on this.

[WhatIsLove?]

for the record im fighting against the 300-101 bc gauls

[WhatIsLove?]

Gentlemen? Shall we start?


http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1196574392

So i had my best troops on the left flank, with my cavalry and medium spearmen on the right

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1196574416

gauls impact almost breaks my line in total, but ultimately only some of my best troops on the left flee

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1196574459

This elite warband right here, did not engage for ALOT of turns, just standing there getting shot. Other warbands did the same. Had they charged and charged and charged they probably would have broken my line, but they didnt.

Edit: as you can see if you compare rounds on the screenshots.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1196574439

i flanked their left and routed their army off the field, again alot of warbands did not engage rather just placed themselfs in front of my hoplites.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1196574475

battle 1 results.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1196574493

So the idea here was to hold the line with my best troops on the left supported by 1 cavalry while my medium spearmen hold rough terrain on the right.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1196574518

Again right here i had 3 or 4 rounds of free shots, while the ai only marched up their cavalry and skirmishers on the left and right, ignoring that the warbands get shot at

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1196574544
This battle was pure chaos, i gave up on the initial plan but could not really flank them from the right or left as they had alot of mobile troops, chariots and cav, and i could not engage them without opening myself to flanking
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1196574556

In the end i lost, even though my skirmishers did tons of damage thanks to ai just standing there and taking shots

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1196574572

battle 2 result.


So yes its possible to win if

a) the ai just parks their warbands withouth engaging them, seeking to break through in order to neglect the inferiority in 'numbers'

b) your line does not crumble at the inital charge completely, which totally is possible as i had it happen, even while defending a 200 hill

c) you get a good flanking, which is not necessarly easy to do, as they have chariots and cav, and as greeks you usually have 1-2 cav for the first 2 battles.

All battles were fought in governor difficulty, its funny though that at a lower difficulty defending a freaking hill, they just smashed me, while on flat ground and higher difficutly i did way better.

Still, yes warbands should have an incredible charge thats fun! Yes they should be able to crack open a formation, thats fun!

Whats not fun is praying that your line holds because there is a x % chance of your line absolutely crumbling while you cant do anything about it.

Originally posted by Quasi Z:

"Some phalanxes broke and ran at -- or even before -- first contact with the enemy, and others endured but a brief duel..." - Hoplites at War: A Comprehensive Analysis of Heavy Infantry Combat by Paul M. Bardunias

Even though it fits with this quite nicely, the question is, is this randomness fun in a game? And how historical correct is this quote of paul m bardunias, what is the position of other experts? If so, probably we should not touch the hoplites vs gauls, but if not..


Its hard to come to a conclusion however, on one hand its fun to play against them, and the charge is what 'makes them special' on the other hand it can feel hopless if your line just folds, while holding a hill... its just wrong.

Dont know, i will do more testing, looking forward to quasi z's conclusion.

[Captain_Narol]

For your information, Gauls were reputed mercenaries and feared by most at that time, even Romans who got humiliated by them in 390 BC and forced to pay a tribute...

They fought for Carthage, Ptolemaic Kingdom, Bythinia and many others, as they were highly trained in war and known for their ferocity.

[Quasicide]

I had a great time testing this out, and each battle was uniquely entertaining.
All those magnificient Hoplite shields definitely made me smile!

Gallic Battle 1 - decisive victory
Gallic Battle 2 - decisive victory
Germanic Battle 1 - decisive defeat
Germanic Battle 2 - decisive victory

Despite my victories, I think FraGG may be on to something.

Before I dive into exactly what I mean, it'd be great if SnuggleBunny and FraGG tried fighting Greeks vs Germanic. Anyone else who reads this should feel free to chime in too.

I'm curious if my experience was atypical.

[WhatIsLove?]

Originally posted by Captain Narol:

For your information, Gauls were reputed mercenaries and feared by most at that time, even Romans who got humiliated by them in 390 BC and forced to pay a tribute...

They fought for Carthage, Ptolemaic Kingdom, Bythinia and many others, as they were highly trained in war and known for their ferocity.

I know but this is not what this is about, greek mercenaries served in foreign armies too, for your information, especially hoplites and archers.

In battle 1 the best unit i could field routed in 2 turns after the charge, i could do NOTHING. This is not fun, this is a diceroll, no tactic involved.

I just can field... what i can field and if my best unit is routed that quickly, i have to pray that my other units are not.

IF they survive the impact, hoplites do much better, but gauls have bigger units so in a 1v1 they still lose.

Lastly, who cares who the gauls crushed? With that in mind, rome should win against every other army with ease, as they conquered all of europe.

A game does not work like this.

Just lets make rome a unstoppable army, they fought, gauls, germans, spanish, carthage, seuleucids, macedonians, thracians..... and conquered them.... and were known for their discipline...

Why play? What we are searching for is called, assymetrical balance.

And if a game is decided by pure luck at the charge, then thats not skill, nor balance.

Edit: yes yes, its possible to win, i did it. But not only did the ai help me alot, but also i had luck at the charge, now compare this battle to me defending a 200 hill.

You want to tell me that its perfectly fine, for any army, storming a 200 hill, trashing you?

Thats balance to you? Or luck?

[WhatIsLove?]

Originally posted by Quasi Z:

I had a great time testing this out, and each battle was uniquely entertaining.
All those magnificient Hoplite shields definitely made me smile!

Gallic Battle 1 - decisive victory
Gallic Battle 2 - decisive victory
Germanic Battle 1 - decisive defeat
Germanic Battle 2 - decisive victory

Despite my victories, I think FraGG may be on to something.

Before I dive into exactly what I mean, it'd be great if SnuggleBunny and FraGG tried fighting Greeks vs Germanic. Anyone else who reads this should feel free to chime in too.

I'm curious if my experience was atypical.

I will try it out.