The Mind Flower...

[Ｘｅｎ]

Anyone else think this victory condition could do with some changes? I've played multiple games now against humans and AI and the people who go for the mindflower always win. Just now in a multiplayer game I built my Emancipation gate at least 5-6 turns before another player finished his mind flower, he had 22 turns until victory but managed to reduce it by building mind stems (I think that's what they're called?)

My problem with this victory is the player who builds it just simply has to sit there and do nothing while Emancipation and Promised Land both require you to do things which are quite time consuming and awkward to do. For example, I was sending Prime SABR's and Prime ANGELS through the gate to try and rapidly progress to victory, but the fact I can only send one unit a turn slowed me down massively, combine that with the fact the SABR only has 1 movement. I understand this is for balance and I have no problem with that, but the mind flower player doesn't have to worry about this, he just sits back and speeds along to victory.

Basically, I lost by one turn (Had 948/1000 strength through the gate and a prime SABR on the gate but couldn't send it through because he had no moves left, realistically you should be able to click on the gate and send the unit through regardless of movements remaining.)

Also, before anyone says "Go and destroy the mind flower." I already did that with two players in the game, then I used a Phasal Transporter to send my army back home to send them through the gate, going back wasn't really an option. I'm just sick of seeing every player in multiplayer go Harmony just for an easier victory condition, it feels so basic compared to the other two affinity victories.

Rant over.

[gimmethegepgun]

Mind Flower loses all its progress if it's destroyed, Emancepation and Exodus Gates do not.
That's pretty much their thought process behind it.
Also, put a magrail on the Gate's tile to allow SABRs to enter quickly (or Settlers exit quickly from Exodus)

[Ｘｅｎ]

I had magrails, it helped a fair bit but it wasn't enough. I didn't know that though, about losing progress, so I guess that makes a lot more sense now. Still, it's a bit ridiculous when 3 out of 5 players are all building the mind flower at the same time.

[gimmethegepgun]

You had a magrail on the same tile as the Gate right? Because that would allow your SABR to be able to move onto it and be sent on the same turn.

[Ｘｅｎ]

Hmm, I thought I did because I built it along a road inbetween my capital and second city, but maybe the building of the gate removed the previous improvement as well as the road?

[Jigen]

I rarely ever see players go Harmony; Purity seems far more prevalent. I've also found that Domination is usually the victory path most often pursued.

Additionally, if you had phasal transporters you should've easily been able to destroy the mind flower and then also keep it destroyed.

[eeloocraft113]

When I read the description it said that all the aliens would attack me unforgivingly for the duration of the 'blooming' procces.

[gimmethegepgun]

Originally posted by Mine_Man6:

When I read the description it said that all the aliens would attack me unforgivingly for the duration of the 'blooming' procces.

They do. Aliens are immediately set to red when the Mind Flower is completed.
Problem is, the land aliens have almost certainly been exterminated (and even if they weren't they're not a threat whatsoever other than to unguarded, unfenced workers) and Kraken are always highly avoidable by not going into ocean tiles (also +1 sight from Panopticon or Optical Surgery helps)

[Archgoose]

Bump.

Mindflower needs serious nerfing, additional reasons not yet mentioned:

Supremacy and Purity are really synergistic, compared to Harmony which is focused. Players focusing Harmony for Mindflower victory generally have much stronger militaries at the same endgame phase than players going for Supremacy and/or Purity. Or at least that's my experience. I just table flipped a Gemini game where the enemy built the Mindflower, so I was all like, "Whatev's I'll just go destroy it". So I send my whole army over there (Tier 1 Supremacy specced), and they roll up with an army of Tier 2 Harmony specced units that just wrecked my army. Like my forces didn't even put a dent in them despite having massive Might bonuses. I also was in the process of building my Emancipation Gate, but won't be able to finish and use it in time. So that's a huge waste of time. Also, maybe it's just me, but the Aliens seem drawn to the Mindflower aggressively but don't really know who to attack. I had a bunch of Aliens beside me and the enemy who built Mindflower. I had a green icon (meaning not aggressive), the Alien attacked my unit. I was like, "wtf". I presume it was because I had less Harmony or something?

My ideas for fixing it: First, give players a warning when endgame sites are first being built as well as when completed. That gives time to actually consider how to stop it instead of being blind sided. I'd also be fine with this on the receiving end because it's fair. Second, when Mindflower is completed it should instantly generate multiple (depending on time and difficulty) Alien Nests around the faction that built it; each of these should have something like 1 Worm, 1 Raptor, 2 of the ranged ones, and 3 Bettles. These Nests need a preprogrammed script to focus ONLY on bee-lining and destroying that Mindflower. They might even need to be buffed somehow to take into account how easily Tier 2 Harmony units can tear through apparently anything. Maybe even have it so the Nests produce those massive walker type Kaiju Aliens.

The worst part about the scenario described in the first paragraph is I checked the score. I was easily close to 1,000 points higher than the Mindflower player yet they have the stronger military and built endgame first. That seems fundamentally wrong to me.

Furthermore, a much smarter end game AI please. I said to the other surviving AI player, "Hey, let's declare war together against Mindflower person so they don't win" and the other AI was like, "Nope, sorry, not interested" (I even hit the What Would Make This Deal Work button and they were like, "Nope, don't care"). And I was like, "Wait, I have like a ton of favors you owe me, I should be able to force you into this." and they were like, "Nope, not an option." I should have either been able to use my Favors to force their cooperation OR they should have realized the situation and agreed to the alliance so the game would not end. Most non-troll human players would have done that.

[Jigen]

Originally posted by Archangel:

Players focusing Harmony for Mindflower victory generally have much stronger militaries at the same endgame phase than players going for Supremacy and/or Purity. .

Incorrect. Harmony units are the weakest of the 3 afffinities.

Next you will find that Affinity is incredibly important in this game and that allowing yourself to be outgained in that department will always lead to military defeat.

Additionally, having adequate reconnaisance will prevent you from being blind-sided by others' achieving victory conditions.

And lastly, if you open the diplomatic relations window and mouse-over the score you will see that military units are NOT taken into account when generating score. That you would have 1k more points than your opponent and yet still so easily succomb militarily speaks volumes about a mismanaged military industrial complex.

I would suggest you engage in multiplayer games instead. The AI for this game is incredibly easy and while multiplayer matches will be extremely daunting at first, they will also improve your gameplay exponentially.

[Trash Elo 101]

Originally posted by Xen:

Anyone else think this victory condition could do with some changes? I've played multiple games now against humans and AI and the people who go for the mindflower always win. Just now in a multiplayer game I built my Emancipation gate at least 5-6 turns before another player finished his mind flower, he had 22 turns until victory but managed to reduce it by building mind stems (I think that's what they're called?)

My problem with this victory is the player who builds it just simply has to sit there and do nothing while Emancipation and Promised Land both require you to do things which are quite time consuming and awkward to do. For example, I was sending Prime SABR's and Prime ANGELS through the gate to try and rapidly progress to victory, but the fact I can only send one unit a turn slowed me down massively, combine that with the fact the SABR only has 1 movement. I understand this is for balance and I have no problem with that, but the mind flower player doesn't have to worry about this, he just sits back and speeds along to victory.

Basically, I lost by one turn (Had 948/1000 strength through the gate and a prime SABR on the gate but couldn't send it through because he had no moves left, realistically you should be able to click on the gate and send the unit through regardless of movements remaining.)

Also, before anyone says "Go and destroy the mind flower." I already did that with two players in the game, then I used a Phasal Transporter to send my army back home to send them through the gate, going back wasn't really an option. I'm just sick of seeing every player in multiplayer go Harmony just for an easier victory condition, it feels so basic compared to the other two affinity victories.

Rant over.

I find that I can NEVER win using Emancipation, the 1,000 count required is absolutely ridiculous. Mind Flower I have never lost in multiplayer or against bots. Conquest is also pretty much a guarenteed win..... I haven't tried to do Promised Land and I found contact to be stupid and innefective. Conquest or Mind Flower, Mind Flower is much easier but less fun.

[JVteam]

Originally posted by Jigen:

Harmony units are the weakest of the 3 afffinities.

How often have you played Harmony?

A Fortified Marauder alone in miasma can fight off almost any any non-harmony melee unit...with its effective strength of 105.6 and at least 20 heal per turn. You need an Evolved* CARVR with the anti-fortification bonus to beat it in melee combat...
And that's my BASIC INFANTRY UNIT as a harmony colony.
Harmony might not be great for assault, but it can defend incredibly well.

Not to mention that they can produce a ton of these things, and spray miasma on literally every tile they own.

Unit for Unit, when Harmony defends, they win.

*It's a Supremacy Unique unit, so taking the harmony branch of the supremacy unit I do not consider to be a harmony unit.

[JVteam]

Originally posted by JuhMaul:

Originally posted by Xen:

Anyone else think this victory condition could do with some changes? I've played multiple games now against humans and AI and the people who go for the mindflower always win. Just now in a multiplayer game I built my Emancipation gate at least 5-6 turns before another player finished his mind flower, he had 22 turns until victory but managed to reduce it by building mind stems (I think that's what they're called?)

My problem with this victory is the player who builds it just simply has to sit there and do nothing while Emancipation and Promised Land both require you to do things which are quite time consuming and awkward to do. For example, I was sending Prime SABR's and Prime ANGELS through the gate to try and rapidly progress to victory, but the fact I can only send one unit a turn slowed me down massively, combine that with the fact the SABR only has 1 movement. I understand this is for balance and I have no problem with that, but the mind flower player doesn't have to worry about this, he just sits back and speeds along to victory.

Basically, I lost by one turn (Had 948/1000 strength through the gate and a prime SABR on the gate but couldn't send it through because he had no moves left, realistically you should be able to click on the gate and send the unit through regardless of movements remaining.)

Also, before anyone says "Go and destroy the mind flower." I already did that with two players in the game, then I used a Phasal Transporter to send my army back home to send them through the gate, going back wasn't really an option. I'm just sick of seeing every player in multiplayer go Harmony just for an easier victory condition, it feels so basic compared to the other two affinity victories.

Rant over.

I find that I can NEVER win using Emancipation, the 1,000 count required is absolutely ridiculous. Mind Flower I have never lost in multiplayer or against bots. Conquest is also pretty much a guarenteed win..... I haven't tried to do Promised Land and I found contact to be stupid and innefective. Conquest or Mind Flower, Mind Flower is much easier but less fun.

The way you said this makes me think that you have low energy generation. Contact and to a lesser extent Emmancipation are the two victories primarily achieved through cash.

Contact is usually fastest in games I play. Beeline the techs you need, then go for affinity points. The Beacon takes the longest from construction to victory, but since it is constructed so much sooner given the techs required, it will often win. Build as many energy producing buildings as possible, then army. Often Harmony synergizes well with contact because of the massive defensive bonuses as stated in my previous post. Get the "Virtue" in industry that compounds your cash on hand, the finisher as well if you can, and you are golden.

To achieve emmancipation, designate the city you build the emmancipation gate in (typically your highest production city) to permanent Redeemer/Apostle production and purchase as many as you can in that city. Redeemers can be built and sent to earth in the same turn, and if you build the gate close enough to the city, apostles can as well. That makes for 20 units total which can be slightly slower than the other affinity victories, but still at similar speeds.

[Jigen]

I have played Harmony quite a bit actually. I have 400+ hours of multiplayer in Civilization: Beyond Earth and I have never lost to any victory other than Domination.

While Harmony may seem well equipped to defend, their lack of ranged units is a serious detriment. Rocktopus would solve this dilemma, except that they are extremely costly to even research (I have NEVER seen an enemy rocktopus in play, in 400+ hours). Miasma can be problematic, however, and it is best to prevent it from being laid in the first place.

The fact is that the affinities are pretty well balanced in terms of what they can and cannot do. I realize that units become more powerful and recieve unique perks as they progress but this occurs equally across all affinities. Sure your 11 harmony maurader is tanky, but so are the other level 11 affinity soldiers. Harmony cannot, however, defend particularly well against Lev Tanks or SABRs.

To be honest, I almost always steamroll the players using harmony; it is difficult to play well. Purity, on the other hand, is another story.

[gimmethegepgun]

Harmony has powerful single units, but they don't mass power very well. Yes, that Marauder had 105.6 strength and lots of healing, but it can't be next to adjacent units or it becomes just plain worse than the other Soldiers (for instance, Centurion can have 30% on defense, nearly as good as 40% when alone and just as good as 30% in miasma, yet doesn't require either. Or, they can get 10% per unused movement, which means 20% or 30% on defense and generally the same amount on offense, and then they can get HEAL EVERY TURN on top of that). They also have very poor ranged capabilities. The Shredder's upgrades make it a skirmisher, either going through heavy terrain with ease or being able to run away after shooting. When you need to hold your ground, however, they offer little compared to the other Rangers. The Minotaur is easily the best of the 3 top tier Missile Rovers, but that's mostly because of its mobility. Again, not good at standing and fighting (SABR crushes it in that regard, though obviously that's a unique unit). The Rocktopus is decent, but unlike everything else Harmony has it can't move for crap whatsoever, with 1 movement and being forced to stay up for 10 turns (more if you're unfortunately Slavic or took the satellite duration) unless you take the Prime upgrade, and yet it would be substantially easier to launch a Planet Carver where you want it for better effect. Not to mention Harmony has basically no business being in the tech tree where the Rocktopus is. Rocktopi also obviously don't stack at all, since they chew up orbital space. SABR destroys Rocktopus in offensive capability, massing power, and even mobility (and this is the SABR we're talking about here)

Nearly all of their units can have at least some of the following descriptions: mobile, individually powerful, good in your own territory. But a lot of the time you need to stand and fight. A lot of the time you need to get a lot of military might. Sometimes you need to go attack someone else.

And then you upgrade your Xeno Titan and BWAAAAAAAAGH at them and bowl them over as their puny ranged units deal scratch damage and they eat everything for healing (including idiot air units that get instagibbed).