1UPT is annoying as hell.

[daviz]

In a Civ5 game was playing, all these happened.. I'm guessing Civ BE won't be any different.
Yes I know Civ5 players have seen it all before, but it's time for a recap.

Can't select to buy a new unit because already have one in city. Get out of city screen, move unit, go back in, buy unit. rinse and repeat.

Can't move a unit due to AI. surrounded by mountains except on one side but its a hill so my movement will end on the hex - the friendly city-state AI is sitting on the hex and I can't pass-through. Wait a few hundred years for them to move.

Can't move due to narrow terrain. Go down a one-hex peninsula with forest terrain with two units, can't move the lead one back through because movement points end on 2nd unit hex, can't go around via the sea because don't have embarkation yet.

Building roads with two workers - wanna build next section of road? oh you have to get off the road and go-around dummy! You are the same unit type as me! Whats that? You have a settler and a missionary? They have to get off the road too! Can't share hexes with them!

Don't friggin get me started on getting catapults into position on rough terrain for a city siege.

<groan> I guess someone will mod these frustrations out in Civ:BE

[Wyrtt]

Originally posted by Fnord:

1UPT ensures that the AI wont ever be a threat. Its simply a bad idea.

why even play civ with ai? It is mp game

[Shin]

Personally, I really like 1upt. It just "feels" better. I find gameplay feels more rewarding when there aren't giant stacks of units smashing into things. With 1upt, there's logistics and planning and I'll tade the away "realism" away any day of the week for a sense of strategic planning. I'm ok with Archers being able to fire over a city if it means, I can hold choke points and have to plan a little more carefully when I'm crashing the shores of a new continent.

In my opinion, Civ is a better game with 1upt. It definitely changes how combat works and how to plan for it and it's just more engaging.

[daviz]

Originally posted by wyrtt:

why even play civ with ai? It is mp game

It didn't start out as a MP game originally. Civ 1 & 2 did not have MP until later on.

[leandrombraz]

Originally posted by wyrtt:

Originally posted by Fnord:

1UPT ensures that the AI wont ever be a threat. Its simply a bad idea.

why even play civ with ai? It is mp game

For me, half of the fun in civ is dealing with the AI and see how things play out. It isn't perfect, granted, but it get the job done. I love how each civ have it's own personality (Civ V is my first Civ/4X game), it's nice to get to know them, understand how they "think" and play with it, mostly when you are trying to be peaceful.

MP I have zero interest, imo it just doesn't work. If everyone take their turn together, the combat is broken since Civ isn't about who click faster like in RTS. If each one take their turn separately, it would just take too long, too much waiting. Civ is already a time consuming game, it doesn't need more waiting. I don't remember if you can disable the timer but the only time I played MP it had a timer, it just don't fit with Civ. Civ is a game to stop and think without pressure, look through things, set everything right. A timer just kill the whole civ experience. Honestly, for me the MP is a impersonal, broken boardgame.


I played MP once and I'm not looking forwartd to try again. For me, roleplaying with the AI is where the fun is, for MP there's other games that offer a better experience..

[JackTheRipper]

Just gonna say this because it would be the best decision even though it would be tough program but here it is. Allow the player to choose between 1UPT or allowing stacks of units so each player gets what they want and nobody gets forked by something they do not want in the game.

[leandrombraz]

Originally posted by JackTheRipper:

Just gonna say this because it would be the best decision even though it would be tough program but here it is. Allow the player to choose between 1UPT or allowing stacks of units so each player gets what they want and nobody gets forked by something they do not want in the game.

This would be a hell to balance, would probably be more expensive and time consuming to do than it's worth and we would end with two half baked versions of the same game.

[Andrius227]

Originally posted by leandrombraz:

Originally posted by JackTheRipper:

Just gonna say this because it would be the best decision even though it would be tough program but here it is. Allow the player to choose between 1UPT or allowing stacks of units so each player gets what they want and nobody gets forked by something they do not want in the game.

This would be a hell to balance, would probably be more expensive and time consuming to do than it's worth and we would end with two half baked versions of the same game.

Yes, they would be completelly incompatible. They would need to do separate multiplayer modes because of it. And pretty much rewrite the game twice...

[las]

Originally posted by SamBC:

I'd prefer to represent combined arms with compound units, rather than stacking. Defined compound unit structure where the merging makes one unit for movement and combat purposes. That would allow auxiliary non-combatant or special units to be part of them as well. In your own territory, you could break them back up and recombine them.

This reminds me of the mechanics in HoI3,in term of combined arms,there should be forces acting as main line and other as auxiliary,eg.inf+cav+siege engine,or inf+tank+arty+air(heli).
some aux like cav or tank should have some degree of power working alone,while other are weaker and needs protection.this will also provide the option of going to elite army or mass levy, embolden the strategy layer.

[las]

Originally posted by Andrius227:

Originally posted by leandrombraz:

This would be a hell to balance, would probably be more expensive and time consuming to do than it's worth and we would end with two half baked versions of the same game.

Yes, they would be completelly incompatible. They would need to do separate multiplayer modes because of it. And pretty much rewrite the game twice...

But then worker/settler already walk in the same tile with military.
Maybe the main workload would be on building a balance context and usable AI.

[JackTheRipper]

Originally posted by Andrius227:

Originally posted by leandrombraz:

This would be a hell to balance, would probably be more expensive and time consuming to do than it's worth and we would end with two half baked versions of the same game.

Yes, they would be completelly incompatible. They would need to do separate multiplayer modes because of it. And pretty much rewrite the game twice...

Not sure why you think theyd have to make game twice could be handled by a simple check box enabling stackable units at start of game and not changeable for that save. Basically just create the checkbox and link it to an if else statement.
example
if box = checked combat units per tile limit = 9 allowing 9 combat units per tile. else box = not checked combat units per tile limit = 1 allowing 1 unit per tile.
Then they have to do the same for not combat units; such as settlers workers and missionaries. And as for balancing add collateral damage back in the game to ranged/artillery and armored units(tanks death walkers). and than finally make it so when u attack a stack of units the 1 with highest combat str in the attacked stack does the combat. Than BOOM multiple units per tile allowed and balancing done would take a company like firaxis 4-5 hours to do seing as they literally have all of the data they need to do this in civ4; would be as simple as copy pasting and changing the programming syntax. and for the allowing unit stacking part it would be as easy as editing the xml file.
P.S. thank you for your feedback on my previous post.

[Borri]

This is why i avoid the Civ community, everyone's so upset that their OP stax have been removed. "Sweet! A new Civ! New features! New Engine! Sci fi setting! So many new things! Wait i cant stack my 100,000 man army into one tile???? Forget it game sux not buying." Get over it guys, things like chokepoints and rough terrain matter IRL, patton couln't fit his enitre army into one village, the Germans couldnt embark their 3 million man army onto england in one ship, the 1UPT allows for actual manuevering, flanking, chokepoints, and tactics, it makes war in Civ5 way more intense and interesting. You have to manuever an entire army around a small space, flanking and grabbing high ground, not just watching as two doomstax pound each other for 5 minutes over 1 tile.
(please note spelling errors made for humorous reasons)

[JackTheRipper]

Originally posted by Joe Kidd:

This is why i avoid the Civ community, everyone's so upset that their OP stax have been removed. "Sweet! A new Civ! New features! New Engine! Sci fi setting! So many new things! Wait i cant stack my 100,000 man army into one tile???? Forget it game sux not buying." Get over it guys, things like chokepoints and rough terrain matter IRL, patton couln't fit his enitre army into one village, the Germans couldnt embark their 3 million man army onto england in one ship, the 1UPT allows for actual manuevering, flanking, chokepoints, and tactics, it makes war in Civ5 way more intense and interesting. You have to manuever an entire army around a small space, flanking and grabbing high ground, not just watching as two doomstax pound each other for 5 minutes over 1 tile.
(please note spelling errors made for humorous reasons)

I dont think people want infinite units in 1 tile just the ability to put more than 1 in a tile. And to put it to you this way each tile = size of 1 city so those units must be some giants or something to take up the space of an entire city. Also this makes even less since on the ocean it would be like saying their can only be 1 troop transport per 5 square miles of ocean. Im not saying infinite units per tile but atleast more than 1. Because saying 1 unit per 5 miles or however big each tile is does not have any logic to it. PLus you know by your same logic citys would cap at like size 1 because a size 1 city woul have about as many people as 1 unit. Finally their is a point between doom stacks and 1upt; its not like you have to have 1 or the other there are ways to moderate unit stacking.

[daviz]

Originally posted by Joe Kidd:

This is why i avoid the Civ community, everyone's so upset that their OP stax have been removed. "Sweet! A new Civ! New features! New Engine! Sci fi setting! So many new things! Wait i cant stack my 100,000 man army into one tile???? Forget it game sux not buying." Get over it guys, things like chokepoints and rough terrain matter IRL, patton couln't fit his enitre army into one village, the Germans couldnt embark their 3 million man army onto england in one ship, the 1UPT allows for actual manuevering, flanking, chokepoints, and tactics, it makes war in Civ5 way more intense and interesting. You have to manuever an entire army around a small space, flanking and grabbing high ground, not just watching as two doomstax pound each other for 5 minutes over 1 tile.
(please note spelling errors made for humorous reasons)

Obviously we are not discussing unlimited units per hex, but modifications to the 1UPT system to eliminate it's shortcomings. Ever read about the battles like Verdun and Stalingrad? MIllions of men and hundreds of divisions involved. Single cities as the objective. Isn't that perhaps a "stack of doom" in real life?

[Andrius227]

Originally posted by JackTheRipper:

Originally posted by Joe Kidd:

This is why i avoid the Civ community, everyone's so upset that their OP stax have been removed. "Sweet! A new Civ! New features! New Engine! Sci fi setting! So many new things! Wait i cant stack my 100,000 man army into one tile???? Forget it game sux not buying." Get over it guys, things like chokepoints and rough terrain matter IRL, patton couln't fit his enitre army into one village, the Germans couldnt embark their 3 million man army onto england in one ship, the 1UPT allows for actual manuevering, flanking, chokepoints, and tactics, it makes war in Civ5 way more intense and interesting. You have to manuever an entire army around a small space, flanking and grabbing high ground, not just watching as two doomstax pound each other for 5 minutes over 1 tile.
(please note spelling errors made for humorous reasons)

I dont think people want infinite units in 1 tile just the ability to put more than 1 in a tile. And to put it to you this way each tile = size of 1 city so those units must be some giants or something to take up the space of an entire city. Also this makes even less since on the ocean it would be like saying their can only be 1 troop transport per 5 square miles of ocean. Im not saying infinite units per tile but atleast more than 1. Because saying 1 unit per 5 miles or however big each tile is does not have any logic to it. PLus you know by your same logic citys would cap at like size 1 because a size 1 city woul have about as many people as 1 unit. Finally their is a point between doom stacks and 1upt; its not like you have to have 1 or the other there are ways to moderate unit stacking.

It's the scaling. When you see a tank on a hex, it's actually a fleet of like 1000 tanks. When you see an infantry unit, thats like 6 visible troops, it's really an army of 10000 men. I think 1 unit per tile is the best thing and must not be changed. Even stacking just 2 units would suck in my opinion.

[Andrius227]

Originally posted by daviz:

Originally posted by Joe Kidd:

This is why i avoid the Civ community, everyone's so upset that their OP stax have been removed. "Sweet! A new Civ! New features! New Engine! Sci fi setting! So many new things! Wait i cant stack my 100,000 man army into one tile???? Forget it game sux not buying." Get over it guys, things like chokepoints and rough terrain matter IRL, patton couln't fit his enitre army into one village, the Germans couldnt embark their 3 million man army onto england in one ship, the 1UPT allows for actual manuevering, flanking, chokepoints, and tactics, it makes war in Civ5 way more intense and interesting. You have to manuever an entire army around a small space, flanking and grabbing high ground, not just watching as two doomstax pound each other for 5 minutes over 1 tile.
(please note spelling errors made for humorous reasons)

Obviously we are not discussing unlimited units per hex, but modifications to the 1UPT system to eliminate it's shortcomings. Ever read about the battles like Verdun and Stalingrad? MIllions of men and hundreds of divisions involved. Single cities as the objective. Isn't that perhaps a "stack of doom" in real life?

A big city can expand to surrounding hexes, taking up 7 hexes in total, meaning you can put 7 units on it. And one unit is like thousands of troops. So yeah it's pretty accurate as it is.