Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

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MadMage Dec 5, 2015 @ 8:54am
Unit Balance?
So, I'm playing a game and I've been at war with the Slavic Federation for a while now. I haven't really pushed into their borders, instead just defending against what seems to be an endless stream of Battlesuits. I finally get the upper hand, and decide to push forward... only to have the AI suddenly upgrade literally every unit in their force - I'm seeing 3rd upgrade Marines, Jets and True Battlesuits. Mine are all at second upgrade still... in matter of 3 turns my 'superior' force is suddenly being walked all over because of a single upgrade beyond mine. A 2nd tier Disciple is being one-shotted by a 3rd tier version of the same unit.

This is beyond frustrating. It's horse sh!t. A single upgrade should not provide THIS much advantage.
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Showing 1-15 of 15 comments
Sly Liquid Dec 5, 2015 @ 9:08am 
You should fall back on defence and try to get techs that allow you to upgrade your units. Get military virtues and make sure you use the one trait in the military section to allow you better strength when fighting outside your borders. Use diffrent tatics. Even being outgunned and outmanned you can still get the upper hand by useing the right unit activation at the right time. Keep trying and don't give up.
gimmethegepgun Dec 5, 2015 @ 12:10pm 
Yep. Welcome to the broken mess of BE's balance, compounded by free instant unit upgrades everywhere on the map.
Because why shouldn't Xeno Swarm/CNDR/Battlesuit triple in strength suddenly?
Shahadem Dec 5, 2015 @ 1:56pm 
This isn't that different from prior Civ games where a tank destroys cavalry. The only difference though is not all units immediately upgrade rather than having to bring the units back to be upraded. At least you aren't losing Leipzing to a barbarian unit one turn away from the city hitting 50,000 culture.
gimmethegepgun Dec 5, 2015 @ 2:03pm 
Originally posted by Shahadem:
This isn't that different from prior Civ games where a tank destroys cavalry. The only difference though is not all units immediately upgrade rather than having to bring the units back to be upraded. At least you aren't losing Leipzing to a barbarian unit one turn away from the city hitting 50,000 culture.
Other civ games tend to avoid having such ludicrous power jumps though. Soldier 3->Soldier 4 doubles in base strength (plus whatever your promotion gives you) and the basic affinity melees are even worse.
Plus, the part where they upgrade for free, instantly, anywhere on the map. Which is very important. It causes complete nonsense like the OP's story, and it greatly diminishes the value of energy (combined with all the other things the game doesn't have to spend energy on, like city states or research agreements). If you want a unit to upgrade, you should have to pay for it. Or at least move it through a city.
Part of the issue with unit upgrades in Civ:BE is that you can pick up a single affinity level and suddenly every single copy of a unit in the field is upgraded.

Civ V was a bit tedious with having to individually upgrade every unit... but that system worked better in some ways, because it meant you had to have the gold to upgrade the units already in the field. And often times, you had to cherry-pick and upgrade only those with the promos you wanted. Again, tedious, but it meant that the only way your opponent suddenly upgraded his troops over-night was via not just the teching, but by spending a large chunk of gold.

In Civ:BE though, all you need is to reach the right affinity level, and then everything is upgraded for free... which makes it far more likely that CPU players (and human players, obviously, in multi) will be at war with you, and in a single turn go from weak to strong because the unit they have the most of just got upgraded all at once.

The change in Civ:BE makes for less tedium of going around having to manually upgrade all of your units (assuming you have the gold to do so), or upgrade only those with high promo levels... but the trade-off is that it's far more common that someone, even CPUs, go from a weak military to a strong one literally in the space of a turn, and do so without spending any energy or production on it.
MadMage Dec 5, 2015 @ 4:09pm 
The problem isn't really one of these issues, but the combination of both the massive spike in power between each upgrade and the fact that everything is upgraded for free, instantly.

The whole tank vs cavalry thing doesn't track, either - those are units on completely opposite ends of the tech tree. I'm talking about tier 3 Marines versus tier 4's - the Civ V equivalent would be something like Swordsmen vs Longswordsmen. This single tier difference means I'm doing MAYBE 10 damage to a unit and taking at least 75 damage on the attack; this is goofy unbalanced.

The other problem this causes is that you only upgrade one unit at a time - my Rangers are better for city sieging right now because I haven't reached the next upgrade.

Who on the dev team thought this was a good idea? Why not adopt a system where ALL of our units saw a small power increase (5 points, maybe) for each primary Affinity level? This way all units are viable for their role at all times and getting a single Affinity level doesn't result in a unit going from 32 power to 60+ instantly.
Shahadem Dec 5, 2015 @ 11:14pm 
Originally posted by MadMage:
The problem isn't really one of these issues, but the combination of both the massive spike in power between each upgrade and the fact that everything is upgraded for free, instantly.

The whole tank vs cavalry thing doesn't track, either - those are units on completely opposite ends of the tech tree. I'm talking about tier 3 Marines versus tier 4's - the Civ V equivalent would be something like Swordsmen vs Longswordsmen. This single tier difference means I'm doing MAYBE 10 damage to a unit and taking at least 75 damage on the attack; this is goofy unbalanced.

The other problem this causes is that you only upgrade one unit at a time - my Rangers are better for city sieging right now because I haven't reached the next upgrade.

Who on the dev team thought this was a good idea? Why not adopt a system where ALL of our units saw a small power increase (5 points, maybe) for each primary Affinity level? This way all units are viable for their role at all times and getting a single Affinity level doesn't result in a unit going from 32 power to 60+ instantly.

Actually that isn't correct. Tier 4 is the final tier. Thus the difference is not similar to Swordsman to Longswordsman

This would be Modern Armor upgrading to Giant Death Robot, which actually is the upgrade path in Civ 5. In that situation, the strenbth goes from 100 to 150. Or Paratrooper to Xcom, 65 to 100.

The only real difference here is that all the units upgrade at once, and that is where the identifiable problem is. There should probably be a staggered upgrade system of 1 unit of each type being upgraded per turn.
Last edited by Shahadem; Dec 5, 2015 @ 11:16pm
Cryten Dec 6, 2015 @ 3:05am 
I would like to comment on the military virtue suggestion. I would throughly recommend 3/4 into prosperity and then as much as possible into industry as the ability to fund a massive armies and rapid constructions with health from trade routes will let you easily out perform the ai.

Its a shame you ran into an upgrade situation but keep in mind tier 4 upgrades range from affinity 11 for soldiers, 13 for combat rovers to 16-17 for high grade affinity troops so he would not of upgraded his entire army from 1 research spike. At best he could get 2 affinities from a research chaining into a free afinity upgrade. Unless he chained some expeditions into finishing several affinity quests.

If your behind on affinity that late into the game then your best bet is to retreat and try and rush a contact or emancipation victory because you have a good chance of losing this game.
gimmethegepgun Dec 6, 2015 @ 4:27am 
Originally posted by Shahadem:
Actually that isn't correct. Tier 4 is the final tier. Thus the difference is not similar to Swordsman to Longswordsman

This would be Modern Armor upgrading to Giant Death Robot, which actually is the upgrade path in Civ 5. In that situation, the strenbth goes from 100 to 150. Or Paratrooper to Xcom, 65 to 100.

The only real difference here is that all the units upgrade at once, and that is where the identifiable problem is. There should probably be a staggered upgrade system of 1 unit of each type being upgraded per turn.
No, it's more like upgrading Musketmen straight to Great War Infantry. In that the numbers are nearly identical, and it's not quite an endgame unit.
Except in Civ V there's a unit inbetween those, because a 100% strength boost from one upgrade is ridiculous (obviously I am ignoring Gatling Gun->Machine Gun because they suck unless they have the Range promotion already). And it costs quite a lot of gold to do that (I believe it's 120 for Musketmen->Riflemen and 200 for Riflemen->GWI).
MadMage Dec 6, 2015 @ 7:58am 
Originally posted by Shahadem:
Actually that isn't correct. Tier 4 is the final tier. Thus the difference is not similar to Swordsman to Longswordsman

This would be Modern Armor upgrading to Giant Death Robot, which actually is the upgrade path in Civ 5. In that situation, the strenbth goes from 100 to 150. Or Paratrooper to Xcom, 65 to 100.

The only real difference here is that all the units upgrade at once, and that is where the identifiable problem is. There should probably be a staggered upgrade system of 1 unit of each type being upgraded per turn.
1. Being final tier doesn't change the fact that there is a single upgrade's difference between the two causing a 100% power jump. EVERY tier has the same problem - the power of the units doubles each time, so this isn't even unique to the final tier; it's simply the most pronounced.

2. Modern Armor to GDR again makes no sense, because GDR is a unique unit which requires a rare late game resource to even make. It wasn't even originally part of any upgrade path, and you're not intended to have an entire army of these things running around - it would be just as broken for ever MA in your army to instantly become GDRs as soon as you researched the tech.

3. While I agree and point instead to my tiered upgrade system suggestion (which also solves the problem of having disparate power between your own units), all of the units upgrading at once wouldn't even be an issue [beyond making no sense] if the power spike from each tier of upgrade didn't result in double the power of the previous iteration.

Originally posted by Cryten:
Its a shame you ran into an upgrade situation but keep in mind tier 4 upgrades range from affinity 11 for soldiers, 13 for combat rovers to 16-17 for high grade affinity troops so he would not of upgraded his entire army from 1 research spike. At best he could get 2 affinities from a research chaining into a free afinity upgrade. Unless he chained some expeditions into finishing several affinity quests.
I don't know if you comprehended what my original post said - I wasn't seeing a single unit upgrading. He literally hit final tier with everything from Marines to Battlesuits in a matter of about 7ish turns. While I realize there shouldn't be any way of doing this, remember that the AIs do essentially 'cheat' in Civ games, recieving bonuses and free units to keep up with players.
Cryten Dec 6, 2015 @ 4:08pm 
The "cheating" or difficulty bonuses are extra health, extra gold, faster build times and quicker xp gains for units along with some free starting units (including a colony unit in the last 2 difficulties) and technologies to let them keep pace. You should decide if your ready for these bonuses at your experience level.

Your advantages are they you know how to combine your bonuses and fight better allowing you to pull through later in the game. Usually going for domes for population or academies for science.
gimmethegepgun Dec 6, 2015 @ 4:19pm 
Originally posted by Cryten:
domes for population
loldomes. Biowells :P
MadMage Dec 6, 2015 @ 4:47pm 
Originally posted by Cryten:
The "cheating" or difficulty bonuses are extra health, extra gold, faster build times and quicker xp gains for units along with some free starting units (including a colony unit in the last 2 difficulties) and technologies to let them keep pace. You should decide if your ready for these bonuses at your experience level.

Your advantages are they you know how to combine your bonuses and fight better allowing you to pull through later in the game. Usually going for domes for population or academies for science.
I managed to hold out against the offensive and now the Slavic colony is no more - I play Civ V on hard, it's not terribly difficult but that was a hell of a shock.
Cryten Dec 6, 2015 @ 5:13pm 
Originally posted by gimmethegepgun:
Originally posted by Cryten:
domes for population
loldomes. Biowells :P
Ahh yes I got that mixed up because of the purity bonuses, I dont go for the health spam strategy myself. Just science.
Other civ games required you to buy unit upgrades. that's how it would be balanced, and no single tech would give you upgrades for a single unit, But I've have high-tier techs give me enough affinity levels that I could upgrade 2 and even 3 units at once. One time, I could do 4.

I personally dislike the auto-upgrades, if anything, upgrading units should be just as hard if not harder to do. In Civ 5, I only upgraded units that were above level 3.

It's really quite dumb, many people joke, or incorrect poke at some things as making the game more casual... but... if anything makes Civ more casual, it's auto upgrading of units. Sure, it's cool that units are all upgraded automatically now, but why would it cost nothing now, when it should've cost nothing before if using the same in-game logic as Civ 5?

Also the difficulty is all the same AI for the most part, just with more aggression in the later levels, and more unfair bonuses no player will ever get in multiplayer. Other than "make tons of units and throw them at the enemy" The AI doesn't know how to actually wage a war. The best thing to do is to just stay above them for affinity. You can win domination over them every time if you can manage that. But I don't know. I only play on Mercury because the Aliens are the toughest part of this game.

Literally.
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Date Posted: Dec 5, 2015 @ 8:54am
Posts: 15