Flail, Scythe, and Katana feel unviable in practice

[MrUnbecoming]

In theory, they are pretty cool weapons. The katana and Scythe both launch you at your enemies, and allow you to dish out damage quickly. But they also unpredictably launch you around the screen, almost always into danger or a huge cluster of enemies. If there is an Arcane enemy, you're dead if you launch yourself straight into there. Why would I use those 2 melee weapons when I can use the lightning orb or bow?

Now with the Flail, I honestly think it's nearly useless. The circular pattern is so awkward to line up, and the game is so fast-paced that you will certainly be killed just trying to line up the swing. The wind up is also probably too slow, and in general I think it's just a really clunky weapon to use. It's cool that you can manipulate its speed with jumping, but if the weapon itself is so bad (in my opinion) what's the point of trying to utilize those tactics?

I really enjoyed the first Tallowmere (though I don't recall if there is an end-state to that game) and I am enjoying this one too. I don't mean to sound rude in this post, I just genuinely don't know why I would use those (in my opinion too dangerous and inferior) weapons when I could use pretty much anything else.

[Jormungandr]

I agree with your assessment of the Katana and Scythe. they're supposed to be high risk/high reward but they've got the high risk, without the consummate high reward. I'm not really sure how to fix it but I know in the first game the Katana was much more viable.

[MrUnbecoming]

Originally posted by Jormungandr:

I agree with your assessment of the Katana and Scythe. they're supposed to be high risk/high reward but they've got the high risk, without the consummate high reward. I'm not really sure how to fix it but I know in the first game the Katana was much more viable.

Ah you don't agree with the Flail? That's fair. I never take it or see a reason to take it haha. Maybe I haven't given it enough of a chance, but I'd rather just take literally anything else. But yeah the Katana and Scythe are too deadly to take, without being powerful enough to match.

[Spiffosi]

As Jormungandr said before Katana and Scythe are very risky and may need a little bit more balancing.

For me the Flail is one of the most useful weapons in T2. Maybe not as a weapon to start with.
But later in the game you can get rid of some mob very easily. Because of its range you can hit enemies behind walls - beside, above, beneath you - they can't see you and so can't strike back.

The flail might reduce the speed of your run because it could take some time to kill an enemy that way but it's very safe to do it that way.

[MrUnbecoming]

Originally posted by Spiffosi:

As Jormungandr said before Katana and Scythe are very risky and may need a little bit more balancing.

For me the Flail is one of the most useful weapons in T2. Maybe not as a weapon to start with.
But later in the game you can get rid of some mob very easily. Because of its range you can hit enemies behind walls - beside, above, beneath you - they can't see you and so can't strike back.

The flail might reduce the speed of your run because it could take some time to kill an enemy that way but it's very safe to do it that way.

:tallowmere:

Ah yes I never considered that you can take enemies out through walls. I suppose I am the only one that finds the flail awkward to use, which is fair.

[Thultex]

Katana is the thing I cant stop picking and dying over :-D

[MrUnbecoming]

Originally posted by Thultex:

Katana is the thing I cant stop picking and dying over :-D

Every time I take it, I die almost instantly by getting launched into a pack of enemies. Most of the time I get stunned by Arcane weapons. I just don't take it anymore, because it's so deadly and not strong enough compared to pretty much anything else.

[Chris]

On my mind to improve these weapons.

As a general, broad issue for all weapons:

• Add a damage multiplier for certain weapons #136[github.com]

More specific thoughts:


Flail
Make chain length actually try and line up with enemy distance, rather than being at a fixed maximum. It can feel frustrating at times currently (v0.2.1), especially when enemies are too close to you:

• Flail: Make chain length be intelligent #343[github.com]

Katana
The Katana was dubbed the "suicide blade" in Tallowmere 1 for good reason.

Things I'd like to explore for Tallowmere 2:

• Alterants to modify how crazy or unpredictable the Katana should or shouldn't be, such as restricting radius, restricting target-selection to only enemies in front of you, targeting lowest-health enemy first
  
  
• Increasing Katana base damage by default compared to other weapons, due to how fragile you can be being teleported into the fray
  
  
• Adding an incoming-damage-reduction calculation while using the Katana to feel more tanky and less fragile
  
  
• Modifiers with cooldowns for dealing more damage on first hit(s), or more damage as you swing and teleport more and more in quick succession.

Base damage increase is probably likely to be "permanent" in an upcoming gameplay version, but the rest, I think item modifiers, blessings, and buffs will probably be utilised to mix things up. I don't want every weapon to feel like a generic stat stick; really want to explore letting RNG dictate if a weapon is a good roll for your playstyle or not, rather than relying on numbers all the time.

Getting stunned while going crazy with the Katana is also not fun, but I think that's part of the challenge. Some anti-stun modifiers should help ease the pain – or keep your shield at the ready. Or use a different weapon if the room looks too ugly


Scythe
I would say the Scythe feels... awkward at the moment. The momentum to glide to your enemy feels off once you're in range to sink the blade into your target. Needs some juice. Also room for damage multipliers depending on initial distance. Some sort of "frenzy" modifier to deal more damage the more you swing might also be fun.

[MrUnbecoming]

Originally posted by Chris:

On my mind to improve these weapons.

As a general, broad issue for all weapons:

• Add a damage multiplier for certain weapons #136[github.com]

More specific thoughts:


Flail
Make chain length actually try and line up with enemy distance, rather than being at a fixed maximum. It can feel frustrating at times currently (v0.2.1), especially when enemies are too close to you:

• Flail: Make chain length be intelligent #343[github.com]

Katana
The Katana was dubbed the "suicide blade" in Tallowmere 1 for good reason.

Things I'd like to explore for Tallowmere 2:

• Alterants to modify how crazy or unpredictable the Katana should or shouldn't be, such as restricting radius, restricting target-selection to only enemies in front of you, targeting lowest-health enemy first
  
  
• Increasing Katana base damage by default compared to other weapons, due to how fragile you can be being teleported into the fray
  
  
• Adding an incoming-damage-reduction calculation while using the Katana to feel more tanky and less fragile
  
  
• Modifiers with cooldowns for dealing more damage on first hit(s), or more damage as you swing and teleport more and more in quick succession.

Base damage increase is probably likely to be "permanent" in an upcoming gameplay version, but the rest, I think item modifiers, blessings, and buffs will probably be utilised to mix things up. I don't want every weapon to feel like a generic stat stick; really want to explore letting RNG dictate if a weapon is a good roll for your playstyle or not, rather than relying on numbers all the time.

Getting stunned while going crazy with the Katana is also not fun, but I think that's part of the challenge. Some anti-stun modifiers should help ease the pain – or keep your shield at the ready. Or use a different weapon if the room looks too ugly :lunar2019piginablanket:


Scythe
I would say the Scythe feels... awkward at the moment. The momentum to glide to your enemy feels off once you're in range to sink the blade into your target. Needs some juice. Also room for damage multipliers depending on initial distance. Some sort of "frenzy" modifier to deal more damage the more you swing might also be fun.

I really like all these ideas for these weapons, it seems to be a good direction for them. This is why I buy into Early Access games, when it's for a developer that is active in the discussion and really cares about his game. Thank you for the response. I don't want it to seem like I'm ragging on the weapons, because I think they have the potential to be good. It's just in their current state, they feel very underwhelming compared to the rest of the weapons. These proposed changes seem excellent, and I can't wait to see how you implement them.

[Jormungandr]

Originally posted by MrUnbecoming:

Originally posted by Jormungandr:

I agree with your assessment of the Katana and Scythe. they're supposed to be high risk/high reward but they've got the high risk, without the consummate high reward. I'm not really sure how to fix it but I know in the first game the Katana was much more viable.

Ah you don't agree with the Flail? That's fair. I never take it or see a reason to take it haha. Maybe I haven't given it enough of a chance, but I'd rather just take literally anything else. But yeah the Katana and Scythe are too deadly to take, without being powerful enough to match.

I've found the flail is great for killing the enemy in the kitten chamber before opening the door, and as Spiffosi said you can hit people through walls which is fun.

[MrUnbecoming]

Originally posted by Jormungandr:

I've found the flail is great for killing the enemy in the kitten chamber before opening the door, and as Spiffosi said you can hit people through walls which is fun.

Yeah I'll have to give it another go, but I found it a bit awkward to use. The change that Chris proposed that the radius of the chain swing is determined by the proximity to an enemy sounds like a really good change.

[Jormungandr]

Originally posted by MrUnbecoming:

Originally posted by Jormungandr:

I've found the flail is great for killing the enemy in the kitten chamber before opening the door, and as Spiffosi said you can hit people through walls which is fun.

Yeah I'll have to give it another go, but I found it a bit awkward to use. The change that Chris proposed that the radius of the chain swing is determined by the proximity to an enemy sounds like a really good change.

Oh hell yeah that would make it awesome!

[Rave]

I want my dagger back.. .:tear:.

[Lizard Robot]

Jump while using the flail to kill enemies through walls faster. The flail is so useful, I take it as a starting weapon to make sure I always have it. It's on my Must list.

Super-handy and safe weapon once you've got the hang of it.

I miss the dagger, too.

[Jimmy Rustler]

Originally posted by Cobra2o2:

I want my dagger back.. .:tear:.

I do miss the dagger, she was my best girl. But it was objectively pretty broken, let's not pretend otherwise.

Regarding the topic of the thread, the katana is high-risk, and the scythe is just a fast melee weapon, essentially. I find a boomerang at close range outclasses it in every way. As others have said, the flail is extremely useful, maybe more so than magic orbs.

[MrUnbecoming]

Originally posted by Uranai Zenny:

I do miss the dagger, she was my best girl. But it was objectively pretty broken, let's not pretend otherwise.

Regarding the topic of the thread, the katana is high-risk, and the scythe is just a fast melee weapon, essentially. I find a boomerang at close range outclasses it in every way. As others have said, the flail is extremely useful, maybe more so than magic orbs.

The Katana is High-risk, and the Scythe is as well. But they don't have the high-reward counterbalance to make them viable imo. Which is what Chris was going to be working on. Regarding the Flail, I'm sure it can be good as others have said, but the positioning you have to be in is so awkwardly specific relative to the enemy you're trying to hit, I'd rather just get in there with a shield and a melee weapon (or a ranged weapon.) In any case, I'll give the flail another go when the radius smart-targets to nearby enemies, to make it much more reasonable to manage in the heat of combat. That seems like a good change for the weapon, as long as the smart targeting doesn't screw you over.