Not having fun with this game

[RedTotalWar]

Hey guys, I've always been a gamer who's had equal fun with older and modern games. And given my love for fantasy RPGs, Gothic seemed right up my alley.

Yet, I'm not having fun with the game. I can get over the controls and slippery ground- I actually appreciate the combat system. What's preventing me from having fun:

1) The HP/defense system. I don't know how to advance my defense since nobody teaches it (I've seen teachers for strength, dexterity, pickpocketing, sneak, and archery, but not defense). It doesn't matter if I increase my strength- freakin forest wolves and wasps can one shot me despite me having the strength to hack them to death. If the solution is to get armor, then I'm SOL as the most reasonably priced armor is like 500 gold, and there's now way to barter that much outside of foraging a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of meat.

[RedTotalWar]

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

I really like that you dont have anything in the beginning. No armor, no rep and mostly everyone treats you like dirt.

I mean, that might have been revolutionary when Gothic came out, but the Elder Scrolls has made it a staple of fantasy RPG games at this point.

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Then you have work your way up. And you cant go to many places because there are monsters there which will rip you apart and you cant do anything about it and have to wait to go there until you are stronger.

Unless there're a ton more places beyond the three towns, I'd say Gothic is pretty open compared to other fantasy RPGs. I've been able to freely traverse b/w the three camps: granted you have to be careful avoiding the monsters in the woods, but it's not tedious by any means.

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

And after you got stronger you its so rewarding and you feel you have accomplished something.

There are only some older rpgs which gave me the same feeling.

I feel like I would agree if they were an actual defense stat to upgrade. I think the developers were trying to do an early prototype of what Dark Souls would become where it's about getting used to enemy attack patterns and attacking accordingly.

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Well I understand that kind of difficulty is not everyone's cup and they have more fun playing something else. Which is totally fine. People who never played an hardcore rpg like Gothic before of course have some trouble first. That is because its so different from main stream games. Butl there are also rpgs which are even harder e. g. Gothic 2, Blade of Darkness or Eschalon Book 2 for example.

I don't know how many times I have to say that the issue isn't difficulty, it's the counters to that difficulty. If a game is difficult for the sake of being difficult, then that isn't good game design. Gothic, to its credit, has counter systems in place like blocking, dodging, and long reach attacks, but the response-detection isn't strong enough.

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

So I am glad you got it now and I hope you have fun with the game. At least in Gothic 2 you get armor pretty quickly about 5 minutes after the start of the game. So you can look forward to it. ^^

Thanks, but I don't see myself playing Gothic 2 anytime in the near future after I beat Gothic 1. I like to take a break from long RPGs by doing other games in-between, especially if they're in the same franchise.

[Cannon]

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

I feel like I would agree if they were an actual defense stat to upgrade. I think the developers were trying to do an early prototype of what Dark Souls would become where it's about getting used to enemy attack patterns and attacking accordingly.

I really think that the lack of a defence stat is what makes this game fun and rewarding, at least for me. Once you realise that you can't get better armour for a while, the game forces you to try different ways of fighting when you're struggling, like using ranged weapons or luring enemies one by one. Also training weapon skills makes combat much easier.

[PainkilleR]

Originally posted by RectalCannon:

I really think that the lack of a defence stat is what makes this game fun and rewarding, at least for me.

Yeah, I remember when I first played Gothic 1 and didn't know anything about the game, I really wanted to get some armor from the old camp... After working hard for it, taking lots of beatings from the tougher guys and finally acquiring it, all of a sudden my character stopped being completely useless and could deal with some bad guys on his own terms.

That plus the progression in the melee weapon skills is probably one of the most rewarding "power-ups" I have ever seen in games. In fact if I had to name a single most fun and memorable item I have acquired in any game I have ever played, that lame worn red piece of cloth from the old camp would probably be it.

The only competitor for it would be an underwater breathing spell from the Daggerfall (yes, it absolutely was a game changer for me when I first discovered that spell when I was playing Daggerfall)... The close second would be a few items and gameplay mechanics from Morrowind and Blade of Darkness.

[RedTotalWar]

Originally posted by RectalCannon:

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

I feel like I would agree if they were an actual defense stat to upgrade. I think the developers were trying to do an early prototype of what Dark Souls would become where it's about getting used to enemy attack patterns and attacking accordingly.

I really think that the lack of a defence stat is what makes this game fun and rewarding, at least for me. Once you realise that you can't get better armour for a while, the game forces you to try different ways of fighting when you're struggling, like using ranged weapons or luring enemies one by one. Also training weapon skills makes combat much easier.

Possibly, but I don't know if that was intended by the developers. It seems they were really banking on the dodge/block mechanic, but it doesn't work quite as well. Luckily, combos are pretty decently executed, allowing you to get a couple of good hits in to disorient an enemy before they can hit you.

[Oneeyed]

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

Originally posted by RectalCannon:

I really think that the lack of a defence stat is what makes this game fun and rewarding, at least for me. Once you realise that you can't get better armour for a while, the game forces you to try different ways of fighting when you're struggling, like using ranged weapons or luring enemies one by one. Also training weapon skills makes combat much easier.

Possibly, but I don't know if that was intended by the developers. It seems they were really banking on the dodge/block mechanic, but it doesn't work quite as well. Luckily, combos are pretty decently executed, allowing you to get a couple of good hits in to disorient an enemy before they can hit you.

Sorry for some reason I was unsubscribed to this discussion and therefore didnt see your answer. I probably hit the unsubscribe button accidentally.

Well it was fully intended and you can see because there are strafe keys. And actually the easiest way to fight even orcs is to strafe left or right then get one or two attacks in, then the orc attacks you again you strafe left or right again and then get one or two attacks in rinse repeat. It works so well that people manage to beat an orc at level 0 with practise of course. But it doesnt take much time.

Other enemies have different combat tactics. For minecrawler you just stand still and wait until its in range then you attack sideways, the minecrawler then steps back and you still and wait until its in range then you attack sideways rinse repeat

And yes the combat system is a bit of a blue print for Dark Souls. But the real blue print for Dark Souls was Blade of Darkness which is probably the most hardcore game which was ever made.

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

I really like that you dont have anything in the beginning. No armor, no rep and mostly everyone treats you like dirt.

I mean, that might have been revolutionary when Gothic came out, but the Elder Scrolls has made it a staple of fantasy RPG games at this point.

Well no in TES games you always gets treated like you are noble just right from the start. Yes they make you prisoner at the beginning but it has absolutely no impact how people treat you. Its so annoying that everyone looks at you friendly and greets you friendly and they even address you just by passing by. There are mods that gets rid of that annoying sh!t.

In addition there are multiple difference between TES and Gothic, like

- in TES they generated the game world by procedureal generation like most of the dungeons in Daggerfall, forests and landscape in Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim, also monster drops in the wilderness and so on. In Gothic everything is placed by hand, every tree, every bush and every location is hand-crafted.

- TES experimented a lot with predureal generated quests like in Daggerfall and Morrowind and then abandoned it. Gothic never touched that either.

- TES works with level scaling so every part of the game world is accessible right from the start and it leads to really horrible results. Especially in Oblivion where every bandit had deadra armor and deadra weapons in the late game. Gothic has no level scaling whatsoever, the game world is hand-crafted and with finite XP. The difference is in gothic there are areas you cant enter until late game because you get simply one-shoted by everything. And that makes you want to go there while in TES you can go everywhere and no area is especially interesting (well in Morrowind it was different and that why Morrowind is considered the best TES game)

- TES there is respawn and infinitive levelling. In Gothic there is no respawn whatsoever and the XP are finite.

- Gothic already had NPC and Monster AI and daily routines in 2001 while TES put that in in 2006 with Oblivion. In addition monsters fight and hunt each other if they meet which is really cool and leads to a level of immersion even Skyrim didnt achieve yet.

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Then you have work your way up. And you cant go to many places because there are monsters there which will rip you apart and you cant do anything about it and have to wait to go there until you are stronger.

Unless there're a ton more places beyond the three towns, I'd say Gothic is pretty open compared to other fantasy RPGs. I've been able to freely traverse b/w the three camps: granted you have to be careful avoiding the monsters in the woods, but it's not tedious by any means.

Well there are lots of areas where you just get killed. Ever tried to enter the orc lands, the area around the orc arena, the stone circle, the troll area or even the goblin caves early on?

And btw games which closes up areas until you progress in the story and not really open world but just semi open world. But in Gothic you really can go everywhere right from the start if you know your way around ^^.

The devs loved Ultima and you can see it if you play their games multiple times. You then will learn so many things which makes the game much easier. For example if you get a transformation into blood fly scroll you can just fly into the orc town and get a very powerful weapon right from the start.

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

And after you got stronger you its so rewarding and you feel you have accomplished something.

There are only some older rpgs which gave me the same feeling.

I feel like I would agree if they were an actual defense stat to upgrade. I think the developers were trying to do an early prototype of what Dark Souls would become where it's about getting used to enemy attack patterns and attacking accordingly.

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Well I understand that kind of difficulty is not everyone's cup and they have more fun playing something else. Which is totally fine. People who never played an hardcore rpg like Gothic before of course have some trouble first. That is because its so different from main stream games. Butl there are also rpgs which are even harder e. g. Gothic 2, Blade of Darkness or Eschalon Book 2 for example.

I don't know how many times I have to say that the issue isn't difficulty, it's the counters to that difficulty. If a game is difficult for the sake of being difficult, then that isn't good game design. Gothic, to its credit, has counter systems in place like blocking, dodging, and long reach attacks, but the response-detection isn't strong enough.

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

So I am glad you got it now and I hope you have fun with the game. At least in Gothic 2 you get armor pretty quickly about 5 minutes after the start of the game. So you can look forward to it. ^^

Thanks, but I don't see myself playing Gothic 2 anytime in the near future after I beat Gothic 1. I like to take a break from long RPGs by doing other games in-between, especially if they're in the same franchise.

Well if other games interest you more then I wish you all the best and have fun with it.

[RedTotalWar]

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Sorry for some reason I was unsubscribed to this discussion and therefore didnt see your answer. I probably hit the unsubscribe button accidentally.

Well it was fully intended and you can see because there are strafe keys. And actually the easiest way to fight even orcs is to strafe left or right then get one or two attacks in, then the orc attacks you again you strafe left or right again and then get one or two attacks in rinse repeat. It works so well that people manage to beat an orc at level 0 with practise of course. But it doesnt take much time.

Other enemies have different combat tactics. For minecrawler you just stand still and wait until its in range then you attack sideways, the minecrawler then steps back and you still and wait until its in range then you attack sideways rinse repeat

And yes the combat system is a bit of a blue print for Dark Souls. But the real blue print for Dark Souls was Blade of Darkness which is probably the most hardcore game which was ever made.

You know what, you're probably right. The reason I haven't seen it is because I don't use strafe left/right (I have it keyed weird on my keyboard), so the primary tactic I've been doing is dodge back and then lunge. I'll try to adjust this.

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Well no in TES games you always gets treated like you are noble just right from the start. Yes they make you prisoner at the beginning but it has absolutely no impact how people treat you. Its so annoying that everyone looks at you friendly and greets you friendly and they even address you just by passing by. There are mods that gets rid of that annoying sh!t.

That's a good point, but it's not like you're treated like ♥♥♥♥ in Gothic. Gate guards welcome you into compounds with open arms, most people openly talk to you and are willing to help, and the few times you're treated bad (at least in the first chapter) it's more like the general attitude than you being specifically targeted (getting ambushed by those guys hired by one of the Mercs in Old Camp, for example- it only happens because you don't pay him, not because he doesn't specifically like you).

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

In addition there are multiple difference between TES and Gothic, like

- in TES they generated the game world by procedureal generation like most of the dungeons in Daggerfall, forests and landscape in Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim, also monster drops in the wilderness and so on. In Gothic everything is placed by hand, every tree, every bush and every location is hand-crafted.

- TES experimented a lot with predureal generated quests like in Daggerfall and Morrowind and then abandoned it. Gothic never touched that either.

- TES works with level scaling so every part of the game world is accessible right from the start and it leads to really horrible results. Especially in Oblivion where every bandit had deadra armor and deadra weapons in the late game. Gothic has no level scaling whatsoever, the game world is hand-crafted and with finite XP. The difference is in gothic there are areas you cant enter until late game because you get simply one-shoted by everything. And that makes you want to go there while in TES you can go everywhere and no area is especially interesting (well in Morrowind it was different and that why Morrowind is considered the best TES game)

- TES there is respawn and infinitive levelling. In Gothic there is no respawn whatsoever and the XP are finite.

- Gothic already had NPC and Monster AI and daily routines in 2001 while TES put that in in 2006 with Oblivion. In addition monsters fight and hunt each other if they meet which is really cool and leads to a level of immersion even Skyrim didnt achieve yet.

Not all of these are one-sided. You're acting like hard design >>> procedural generation. First off, I don't think procedural generation was a big part of either Morrowind or Oblivion. I know it was with Daggerfall and then Skyrim's dungeons, but most TES worlds are pretty static. You kill someone or some animal in a forest, then revisit the area, you're going to see that body for several days. Secondly, even if it was, that doesn't mean that it's worse designed than Gothic.

I agree that Oblivion's level scaling was poorly done, but level-scaling also isn't inherently bad. It's meant to resolve the Metroidvania issue of revisiting preexisting areas and being a one-man killing machine. While the feeling of getting stronger is dope, it loses its appeal when you're in an area for a extended period of time that poses no challenge. At least that's the case for me personally.

I will say, the knockout feature of Gothic is definitely very unique and I wish more games had it, particularly those that want to claim nonlethal as a viable approach.

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Well there are lots of areas where you just get killed. Ever tried to enter the orc lands, the area around the orc arena, the stone circle, the troll area or even the goblin caves early on?

And btw games which closes up areas until you progress in the story and not really open world but just semi open world. But in Gothic you really can go everywhere right from the start if you know your way around ^^.

The devs loved Ultima and you can see it if you play their games multiple times. You then will learn so many things which makes the game much easier. For example if you get a transformation into blood fly scroll you can just fly into the orc town and get a very powerful weapon right from the start.

I didn't say everything was open, I said Gothic was pretty open compared to other games which lock areas behind unavoidable, really tough enemies, or barriers. But yes, it definitely has some unique aspects to its world design, though also some unintentional aspects (you can easily access the Mage from the beginning if you draw your sword and trigger the guard response, bypassing their insta-block).

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Well if other games interest you more then I wish you all the best and have fun with it.

Eventually I'll do it. I bought the entire Gothic series and I don't want it to go to waste!

[Oneeyed]

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Well no in TES games you always gets treated like you are noble just right from the start. Yes they make you prisoner at the beginning but it has absolutely no impact how people treat you. Its so annoying that everyone looks at you friendly and greets you friendly and they even address you just by passing by. There are mods that gets rid of that annoying sh!t.

That's a good point, but it's not like you're treated like ♥♥♥♥ in Gothic. Gate guards welcome you into compounds with open arms, most people openly talk to you and are willing to help, and the few times you're treated bad (at least in the first chapter) it's more like the general attitude than you being specifically targeted (getting ambushed by those guys hired by one of the Mercs in Old Camp, for example- it only happens because you don't pay him, not because he doesn't specifically like you).

Yes I know what you mean. Most of them just talk to you normally but at least they arent as friendly as in TES where every a$$hole is just glad you talk him and is overly friendly in tone and in the answers. At least the general tone and attitude in Gothic is like who the fu(k are you.

I really dont like it when in rpgs everyone is just glad the hero is passing by and is answering the heros questions like they all are were in a lockdown for months.

Also there are rpgs where all the NPCs just start talking like you were their brother and chew your ear off like there were no tomorrow.

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

Not all of these are one-sided. You're acting like hard design >>> procedural generation. First off, I don't think procedural generation was a big part of either Morrowind or Oblivion. I know it was with Daggerfall and then Skyrim's dungeons, but most TES worlds are pretty static. You kill someone or some animal in a forest, then revisit the area, you're going to see that body for several days. Secondly, even if it was, that doesn't mean that it's worse designed than Gothic.

I agree that Oblivion's level scaling was poorly done, but level-scaling also isn't inherently bad. It's meant to resolve the Metroidvania issue of revisiting preexisting areas and being a one-man killing machine. While the feeling of getting stronger is dope, it loses its appeal when you're in an area for a extended period of time that poses no challenge. At least that's the case for me personally.

I will say, the knockout feature of Gothic is definitely very unique and I wish more games had it, particularly those that want to claim nonlethal as a viable approach.

Yes all of that is true and I agree fully. Its a game design choice and part of it is philosophical approach how you want to make a game and what is its content.

Both companies have just different approaches. And people in the US and UK are more used to the Bethesda approach, while people in Europe and especially in Eastern Europe like the Piranha Bytes approach more.

Also often a lot of your personal taste comes down to which of the games you played first or played in your childhood or youth.

Funnily Piranha Bytes experimented with level scaling and respawning in Gothic 3, while Bethesda toned down level scaling a lot in Skyrim.

PB games are made for an end. Thats why their progression system works. After you hit the end you cant play further. And Bethesda system is for open end. After you hit the end of the main story you can still play and that need a different progression system.

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

I didn't say everything was open, I said Gothic was pretty open compared to other games which lock areas behind unavoidable, really tough enemies, or barriers. But yes, it definitely has some unique aspects to its world design, though also some unintentional aspects (you can easily access the Mage from the beginning if you draw your sword and trigger the guard response, bypassing their insta-block).

Yeah that system you can easily cheese in a lot of ways and you can do it for the whole Gothic series. For example you can just reduce the falling damage to 0 if you block while falling down.

And yes the game world is very very open in comparison to other games and thats probably one of the reasons I like the series so much. Nothing is hidden in loading areas. And monsters just spawn out of thin air just so the devs can have a cheap surprise for the player. If you explore carefully everything is already in the game world. No spawn of monster and mostly no spawn of quest items.

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

Eventually I'll do it. I bought the entire Gothic series and I don't want it to go to waste!

Just lets say then Gothic 2 has better one click controls, has the first armor in the first 5 minutes of the game and if you are clever the second armor in the next 10 minutes. Then it may take few hours until you worked your way up and join a faction for the 3rd armor.
I personally find the story of the first gothic better but the game world, the quests, the controls and so are much better. Turn on Gothic 1 controls in the options, though because otherwise you cant move freely while in combat like you are used to. It has no impact whatsoever to your keyboard/mouse setup.

[RedTotalWar]

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Yes I know what you mean. Most of them just talk to you normally but at least they arent as friendly as in TES where every a$$hole is just glad you talk him and is overly friendly in tone and in the answers. At least the general tone and attitude in Gothic is like who the fu(k are you.

I really dont like it when in rpgs everyone is just glad the hero is passing by and is answering the heros questions like they all are were in a lockdown for months.

Also there are rpgs where all the NPCs just start talking like you were their brother and chew your ear off like there were no tomorrow.

LOL, yeah, I do think the voice acting is better here than in Oblivion, though Oblivion had a greater diversity of voices. So each has their own ups and downs.

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Yes all of that is true and I agree fully. Its a game design choice and part of it is philosophical approach how you want to make a game and what is its content.

Both companies have just different approaches. And people in the US and UK are more used to the Bethesda approach, while people in Europe and especially in Eastern Europe like the Piranha Bytes approach more.

Also often a lot of your personal taste comes down to which of the games you played first or played in your childhood or youth.

Funnily Piranha Bytes experimented with level scaling and respawning in Gothic 3, while Bethesda toned down level scaling a lot in Skyrim.

Good points. I do think each side has its own merits and faults, but it is true that what people grow up with is what they will end up liking more in the end. I do consider myself a more open-minded gamer, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't have my own biases.

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

PB games are made for an end. Thats why their progression system works. After you hit the end you cant play further. And Bethesda system is for open end. After you hit the end of the main story you can still play and that need a different progression system.

Is there no post-game content with Gothic? Is it like Fallout 3 where, once I beat the final main story mission, I will be unable to explore the world further/do side activities?

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Yeah that system you can easily cheese in a lot of ways and you can do it for the whole Gothic series. For example you can just reduce the falling damage to 0 if you block while falling down.

Damn, did not know that, thanks for the tip haha. But yeah, sometimes these design holes make for some good stories.

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

And yes the game world is very very open in comparison to other games and thats probably one of the reasons I like the series so much. Nothing is hidden in loading areas. And monsters just spawn out of thin air just so the devs can have a cheap surprise for the player. If you explore carefully everything is already in the game world. No spawn of monster and mostly no spawn of quest items.

The thing I really like is how close everything is. Gothic is probably the best fantasy RPG game I've played when it comes to not having pointless empty space. Forests and mountain ranges seem reasonable when placed, cities are within walking distance, and you have a decent run speed (compared to Morrowind at least). While I am disappointed by the lack of fast travel or horses, the close proximity of everything makes it very very tolerable.

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Just lets say then Gothic 2 has better one click controls, has the first armor in the first 5 minutes of the game and if you are clever the second armor in the next 10 minutes. Then it may take few hours until you worked your way up and join a faction for the 3rd armor.
I personally find the story of the first gothic better but the game world, the quests, the controls and so are much better. Turn on Gothic 1 controls in the options, though because otherwise you cant move freely while in combat like you are used to. It has no impact whatsoever to your keyboard/mouse setup.

Thanks for the tips. Holding down ctrl for every action was strange but I easily got used to it. If Gothic 2 gives the option for Gothic 1 controls, then I might very well do it.

[Oneeyed]

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

LOL, yeah, I do think the voice acting is better here than in Oblivion, though Oblivion had a greater diversity of voices. So each has their own ups and downs.

Well Oblivion had certainly the better voice actors like Patrick Stewart and Sean Bean but had about the same amount of voice actors. 20 in Oblivion and 17 in Gothic 1. But Gothic 1 is an invalid comparison. Gothic 3 from 2006 is the correct comparison to 2006 Oblivion. And in Gothic 3 there 40 voice actors in the english version.

In Risen 1 then PB finally checked how important the voice acting is and finally hired an international who's who of excellent voice actior like john Rhys-Davies (Gimli) and Lena Headey (Cersei) and many more.

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

Is there no post-game content with Gothic? Is it like Fallout 3 where, once I beat the final main story mission, I will be unable to explore the world further/do side activities?

Nope after the end you will see a final video, after that some voice line and then the credits. And you cannot play further because well you will find out why not. ^^

But in Gothic 2 and 3 where it would make sense to play futher you cant do it, too. Also in Risen 1 to 3 after the end the game is over.

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

Damn, did not know that, thanks for the tip haha. But yeah, sometimes these design holes make for some good stories.

Yeah I guess this is to some extent part of the reason why retro become so big. You could play around with the games, they holes you could exploit and modern games often are so stream-lined there is nothing besides the content everyone sees in the first playthrough. And that is because publisher dont like content people only see in a 2nd playthrough. Why? Because you dont have to pay for playing twice. ^^ They put these thing rather in dlcs so they can charge you for it.

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

The thing I really like is how close everything is. Gothic is probably the best fantasy RPG game I've played when it comes to not having pointless empty space. Forests and mountain ranges seem reasonable when placed, cities are within walking distance, and you have a decent run speed (compared to Morrowind at least). While I am disappointed by the lack of fast travel or horses, the close proximity of everything makes it very very tolerable.

PB are masters of game world design. Or at least were at that time. Gothic 2 has such a good and well designed world and if you know how to get around you can shorten your travel times by about 50 % or more.

Gothic 3 is then a master piece in world design. It has impacted CD Project in designing their Witcher game worlds and also Sure AI in Nehrim and Enderal a lot. At least they say so.

Risen 1 is then much smaller and greatly done. But in Risen 2 and 3 is partly excellent and partly mediocre. Elex has a well designed game world but the monster placement is totally random and doesnt make any sense.

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

Thanks for the tips. Holding down ctrl for every action was strange but I easily got used to it. If Gothic 2 gives the option for Gothic 1 controls, then I might very well do it.

Well the option has just the name but it doesnt change your own keyboard setup. It just you can then move freely in combat while the standard gothic 2 controls you are locked onto the enemy until you reach a certain distance. Dont know why would ever program it like this. So if you dont enable Gothic 1 controls you are in a world of pain.

[PainkilleR]

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

You're acting like hard design >>> procedural generation.

Not to interrupt your dialogue, but... Design >>> Procedural Generation.

That's actually one of the reasons why Morrowind fans didn't like Oblivion back in the day (one of many reasons, but still).

[RedTotalWar]

Originally posted by PainkilleR:

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

You're acting like hard design >>> procedural generation.

Not to interrupt your dialogue, but... Design >>> Procedural Generation.

That's actually one of the reasons why Morrowind fans didn't like Oblivion back in the day (one of many reasons, but still).

Morrowind literally has a city that is a single building copy/pasted eight times. Will never understand the love for the game. Oblivion's level scaling was ♥♥♥♥, but Morrowind's broken alchemy system was a far worse design feature. Oblivion was a far better game in nearly every category.

[RedTotalWar]

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Well Oblivion had certainly the better voice actors like Patrick Stewart and Sean Bean but had about the same amount of voice actors. 20 in Oblivion and 17 in Gothic 1. But Gothic 1 is an invalid comparison. Gothic 3 from 2006 is the correct comparison to 2006 Oblivion. And in Gothic 3 there 40 voice actors in the english version.

In Risen 1 then PB finally checked how important the voice acting is and finally hired an international who's who of excellent voice actior like john Rhys-Davies (Gimli) and Lena Headey (Cersei) and many more.

I know they had limited voice actors, but I'm saying the ADR in Gothic was better than Oblivion's for their cast. But damn, that's amazing to hear about the # of voice actors for Gothic 3.

Risen is on my to-play list for sure.

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Nope after the end you will see a final video, after that some voice line and then the credits. And you cannot play further because well you will find out why not. ^^

But in Gothic 2 and 3 where it would make sense to play futher you cant do it, too. Also in Risen 1 to 3 after the end the game is over.

Ah well, tis a shame, but it's not like I was planning on doing replays. Have too much of a backlog to get through.

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Yeah I guess this is to some extent part of the reason why retro become so big. You could play around with the games, they holes you could exploit and modern games often are so stream-lined there is nothing besides the content everyone sees in the first playthrough. And that is because publisher dont like content people only see in a 2nd playthrough. Why? Because you dont have to pay for playing twice. ^^ They put these thing rather in dlcs so they can charge you for it.

Reminds me of how people would do speedruns with Ocarina of Time by "slipping" between slightly open doors LOL.

A little cynical, though not an unreasonable take. The bigger issue is that games are so big now that a single line of bad code can cause more screw-ups than the fun glitches we experienced back in the day.

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

PB are masters of game world design. Or at least were at that time. Gothic 2 has such a good and well designed world and if you know how to get around you can shorten your travel times by about 50 % or more.

Gothic 3 is then a master piece in world design. It has impacted CD Project in designing their Witcher game worlds and also Sure AI in Nehrim and Enderal a lot. At least they say so.

Risen 1 is then much smaller and greatly done. But in Risen 2 and 3 is partly excellent and partly mediocre. Elex has a well designed game world but the monster placement is totally random and doesnt make any sense.

Are there any horses in the Gothic sequels? And damn, didn't realize Gothic had such a wide-ranging influence. It's interesting to hear your complaints about Risen as I've heard other people call it a noticeable decline from the Gothic series.

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Well the option has just the name but it doesnt change your own keyboard setup. It just you can then move freely in combat while the standard gothic 2 controls you are locked onto the enemy until you reach a certain distance. Dont know why would ever program it like this. So if you dont enable Gothic 1 controls you are in a world of pain.

Haha, will do. Btw, thanks for revealing the block bug allowing you to take no fall damage- made moving through the Old Mine very expedited :)

[Oneeyed]

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

I know they had limited voice actors, but I'm saying the ADR in Gothic was better than Oblivion's for their cast. But damn, that's amazing to hear about the # of voice actors for Gothic 3.

Risen is on my to-play list for sure.

Sorry I misunderstood you then. But overall I think the voice acting in Oblivion is better than the whole Gothic series in english. Its very good in german though but in english they lost 75% of the jokes. And Risen then is the complete turnaround. The english dialogue and voice over is much better than the german original. Also most of the voice actors they hired are US Hollywood or US TV actors which played in most well known TV shows. Especially in Risen 2 they redid many of the boring german dialogue and invented a completely new exciting dialog which is incredibly funny in many cases. But well that alone doesnt save a game.

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

Are there any horses in the Gothic sequels? And damn, didn't realize Gothic had such a wide-ranging influence. It's interesting to hear your complaints about Risen as I've heard other people call it a noticeable decline from the Gothic series.

No horses or other kind of vehicles whatsoever. But in Gothic 3 you get teleport right from the start, In Risen 1 you have wait until mid-game, in Risen 2 then you have multiple ways for teleporting like row boats on the beach, a teleportation system at the world map, ship teleportation between islands. And in Risen 3 they finally put teleporation platforms just everywhere but you have unlock them, though. Elex is then the same as Risen 3.

I could rant how bad the melee combat is in Risen 2 and 3 for hours. In Gothic 3 it is already terrible but in Risen 2 and 3 they made a bad art out of it. At least there are muskets in Risen 2 so I can ignore the close combat system. But most people wont find the muskets in the beginning so they are stuck with melee and abandon the game. And if they find muskets they expect them to work like modern firearms and well the work more like muskets 400 years ago. Also people dont realize how unreliable muskets and pistols were in the golden age of piracy. Risen 3 has then muskets and multiple combat magic systems so people think Risen 3 is much better than Risen 2. Also the graphics, animations and story are tremendously better in Risen 3 then 2.

I still play these games again because of the world design and the exploration part is very well done. Also dialog and quests are mostly exciting and interesting for me and I play it more like an open ended Bethesda game and dont pay much attention to the main story.

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

Haha, will do. Btw, thanks for revealing the block bug allowing you to take no fall damage- made moving through the Old Mine very expedited :)

Glad to help. Try out the bloodfly transformation spell as well. Its the glitchless way of no fall damage and well you're part of the monster community until Gothic 3 when people just ignore you are a bloodfly and try to talk to you ^^.

[RedTotalWar]

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Sorry I misunderstood you then. But overall I think the voice acting in Oblivion is better than the whole Gothic series in english. Its very good in german though but in english they lost 75% of the jokes. And Risen then is the complete turnaround. The english dialogue and voice over is much better than the german original. Also most of the voice actors they hired are US Hollywood or US TV actors which played in most well known TV shows. Especially in Risen 2 they redid many of the boring german dialogue and invented a completely new exciting dialog which is incredibly funny in many cases. But well that alone doesnt save a game.

Ah, I can see how localization issues ruined the end product, but I'm liking the voice acting for Gothic so far. Could just be me!

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

No horses or other kind of vehicles whatsoever. But in Gothic 3 you get teleport right from the start, In Risen 1 you have wait until mid-game, in Risen 2 then you have multiple ways for teleporting like row boats on the beach, a teleportation system at the world map, ship teleportation between islands. And in Risen 3 they finally put teleporation platforms just everywhere but you have unlock them, though. Elex is then the same as Risen 3.

That's good that you get the teleport quicker. Btw, do you get an Old Town teleport in Gothic? So far I have New Camp and the Sect, but not Old Camp.

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

I could rant how bad the melee combat is in Risen 2 and 3 for hours. In Gothic 3 it is already terrible but in Risen 2 and 3 they made a bad art out of it. At least there are muskets in Risen 2 so I can ignore the close combat system. But most people wont find the muskets in the beginning so they are stuck with melee and abandon the game. And if they find muskets they expect them to work like modern firearms and well the work more like muskets 400 years ago. Also people dont realize how unreliable muskets and pistols were in the golden age of piracy. Risen 3 has then muskets and multiple combat magic systems so people think Risen 3 is much better than Risen 2. Also the graphics, animations and story are tremendously better in Risen 3 then 2.

Interesting to see the pros and cons. Will definitely share my opinion with you should I ever get around to playing those games!

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

I still play these games again because of the world design and the exploration part is very well done. Also dialog and quests are mostly exciting and interesting for me and I play it more like an open ended Bethesda game and dont pay much attention to the main story.

A lot of games are like that where the world is more interesting than the story being told.

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Glad to help. Try out the bloodfly transformation spell as well. Its the glitchless way of no fall damage and well you're part of the monster community until Gothic 3 when people just ignore you are a bloodfly and try to talk to you ^^.

I did a warrior build so magic isn't really something I can do since I didn't upgrade my mana at all. Plus, where do you get the bloodfly transformation?

[Oneeyed]

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

That's good that you get the teleport quicker. Btw, do you get an Old Town teleport in Gothic? So far I have New Camp and the Sect, but not Old Camp.

Welll just wait for it. It will come automatically. I dont want to spoil the game.

Originally posted by RedTotalWar:

I did a warrior build so magic isn't really something I can do since I didn't upgrade my mana at all. Plus, where do you get the bloodfly transformation?

You find scrolls for it in the game world. The cost is only 5 mana. You should have already some in your inventory. You can get them easily in the beginning of the game. Just explore every corner. Lots of loot to find everywhere ^^