Fleet Composition (Union) - The Trouble with Frigates?

[JMDurron]

I'm noticing some unexpected (for me, anyway) downsides to the "Spam Frigates" approach to Naval fleets in my latest Union game (Spring '61) with the latest patches. Thought I'd see what the rest of the community thinks on this point.

After doing initial digging into a number of sources (including GreatScots' recent Naval video on YT), I committed to the "build lots of Frigates" approach to Union fleets. A couple of limitations to this approach have popped up, so I thought I'd see what others tend to do with their Union blockade fleets.

1) Ammunition - The amount of ammo consumed by my Frigate-heavy fleets leaves them vulnerable to swarm tactics from more numerous, less powerful CSA fleets of 4th-rates and other various vessels. I've noticed that when my fleets tend to go from dominating to red readiness/defeat, it's usually because my ships are out of ammo. As the fleet returns to port, it then takes quite some time to replenish their ammo, and I get "artillery ammunition" shortage notices on the industry alert icon as well.

2) Diving into some of the older threads, it appears that the reliance of the Frigates on just "cannons" as opposed to "rifles" may also be a critical limitation. That may help explain why my fleets aren't dominating opponents faster, before they can run out of ammo.

So, those are just my observations. I'm still struggling (even if I stick with Frigates) also with what proportion of my fleets should be the "big" ships vs the smaller Brigs/4th rates/Swoop types. The relative cost of construction, plus sailing speed, plus lack of coal consumption still argues strongly for going Frigate-heavy, but I'm thinking the downsides are also becoming a little more apparent.

I'm also still trying to wrap my head around the best kind of fleet composition for attacking forts, particularly in the early game (61-62). I'm trying to focus on the naval and economic elements in my current game, so there's also the tradeoff between combat power and "navy upkeep" to consider.

Just wondering how others tend to tackle this. Appreciate any thoughts from the community.

[GreatScots]

That's some serendipitous timing you got there. I was about to post if anyone knows all the costs that go into naval upkeep.

I have a video that's supposed to go out about efficient blockading ships. The takeaway is "build frigates."

I'm now working on another one about how to efficiently attack forts from the sea. I decided to not add the "capacity" cost to ship construction cost. However, when you add in the coal (negligible) cost to the provision and ammo costs that are part of the capacity of a ship, the costs balloon because provisions and ammo are expensive. Frigates consume a ton of both, unlike many other ships.

The problem is I don't really understand naval upkeep costs. The upkeep cost factor in campaignprefs is set to 10x. I assume that's 10x construction cost (maybe with provision costs added in), or it's 10x construction cost plus cost of provisions it consumes. I assume the ship fills up with provisions once before it departs and then consumes more from there. With my luck, it's actually something else.

In any event, I'm going to have to pull the upcoming video, because frigates, for their cost when provisions are added in, are not nearly as efficient as I thought.

The lesson we should all take away from this is: never listen to GreatScots.

[JMDurron]

Originally posted by GreatScots:

That's some serendipitous timing you got there. I was about to post if anyone knows all the costs that go into naval upkeep.

I have a video that's supposed to go out about efficient blockading ships. The takeaway is "build frigates."

I'm now working on another one about how to efficiently attack forts from the sea. I decided to not add the "capacity" cost to ship construction cost. However, when you add in the coal (negligible) cost to the provision and ammo costs that are part of the capacity of a ship, the costs balloon because provisions and ammo are expensive. Frigates consume a ton of both, unlike many other ships.

The problem is I don't really understand naval upkeep costs. The upkeep cost factor in campaignprefs is set to 10x. I assume that's 10x construction cost (maybe with provision costs added in), or it's 10x construction cost plus cost of provisions it consumes. I assume the ship fills up with provisions once before it departs and then consumes more from there. With my luck, it's actually something else.

In any event, I'm going to have to pull the upcoming video, because frigates, for their cost when provisions are added in, are not nearly as efficient as I thought.

The lesson we should all take away from this is: never listen to GreatScots.

I'm suspecting that whatever the naval upkeep costs are, they are not just for the provisions. I suspect it is provisions + ammo + fuel. I say this because it stands to reason that the upkeep of the resources are impacting both the finances of the country and the resources being consumed as a part of those supplies associated with upkeep. My guess is that the resource cost is tied to price, and the "upkeep" somehow relates to the volume/frequency of resource consumption by the fleets.

I may be overly weighing a small sample here, but I've noticed that both my "Naval Upkeep" cost in the Finances tab *AND* my resource shortage mouseover info (Artillery Ammo being the one I notice, haven't paid close attention to food/provisions or coal to date) tend to spike when my fleets are in port re-supplying, and they skyrocket when I create new fleets just after ship construction has been completed. My suspicion is that both will go down somewhat when those new fleets reach full readiness, put out to sea, and are then consuming a more steady-state level of provisions + ammo + fuel as opposed to the initial surge of resources to the new ships/fleets.

If (and it's a big if) I'm not completely full of it on this, then the Spring 61 campaign in particular will effectively impose a very heavy tax on the Union to accomplish initial fleet standup, relative to the starting resources of all later campaigns. Much like the CSA and forts, it may not be effectively possible to construct/deploy the same level of naval strength on a similar timeline to what is on the starting map in the later scenarios when starting from Spring 61.

[GreatScots]

Yeah, by provisions that time, I meant broadly the things ships need once at sea, which is the good named "provisions," coal, and ammunition. We know they use ammo when they're fighting and coal when their moving, and I assume provisions at some constant rate. I also would like to know if there's a way to compute the costs of naval artillery.

[JMDurron]

Originally posted by GreatScots:

Yeah, by provisions that time, I meant broadly the things ships need once at sea, which is the good named "provisions," coal, and ammunition. We know they use ammo when they're fighting and coal when their moving, and I assume provisions at some constant rate. I also would like to know if there's a way to compute the costs of naval artillery.

I propose the term "consumables" as an easy/clear way to capture all 3 elements to minimize both confusion and typing. :-)

[JMDurron]

Originally posted by GreatScots:

I also would like to know if there's a way to compute the costs of naval artillery.

From what I can tell, "naval artillery" as a build cost can be derived from the number of artillery weapons combined with the "production factor" parameter on the Weapons tab in the ModdingTool.

Example:
Frigate
ShipType Tab
-50 Guns = 42 "32 pounder Navy Cannon" + 8 "8-inch Navy Cannon"
-Building Cost for Naval Artillery = 58

Weapons Tab
- 32-pounder Navy Cannon = Production Factor of 1
- 8-inch Navy Cannon = Production Factor of 2

Naval Art Cost = 42 (x1) + 8 (x2) = 58

However Production Factor is applied, I'd assume it impacts the supply chain/economy in the same manner as the land artillery and small arms do, according to the factors on the Weapons tab.

[GreatScots]

Originally posted by JMDurron:

Originally posted by GreatScots:

I also would like to know if there's a way to compute the costs of naval artillery.

From what I can tell, "naval artillery" as a build cost can be derived from the number of artillery weapons combined with the "production factor" parameter on the Weapons tab in the ModdingTool.

Example:
Frigate
ShipType Tab
-50 Guns = 42 "32 pounder Navy Cannon" + 8 "8-inch Navy Cannon"
-Building Cost for Naval Artillery = 58

Weapons Tab
- 32-pounder Navy Cannon = Production Factor of 1
- 8-inch Navy Cannon = Production Factor of 2

Naval Art Cost = 42 (x1) + 8 (x2) = 58

However Production Factor is applied, I'd assume it impacts the supply chain/economy in the same manner as the land artillery and small arms do, according to the factors on the Weapons tab.

Yeah, I meant the price cost of it. The way I computed the other stuff was by multiplying the average price of a good times how much it used. Is there a price for naval artillery? I didn't see one.

[JMDurron]

Originally posted by GreatScots:

Yeah, I meant the price cost of it. The way I computed the other stuff was by multiplying the average price of a good times how much it used. Is there a price for naval artillery? I didn't see one.

Not that I can see. I suppose changing the restriction on the weapon in the Weapons tab might make it viewable on the Weapons order screen, to help figure out what the cost of the actual guns are?

The supply/demand info on "Artillery" doesn't seem influenced by my fleet building, which presumably would cause a demand change for artillery if naval were pegged to it. So, if that naval artillery parameter is separate from general "artillery" costs, even seeing it on the weapons order screen might not help any.

[JMDurron]

Getting back to theorizing on fleet makeup in terms of ship types. Emphasis still on the early game for my part, since I keep forgetting to mod the morale breaking point to get to play later on from the early scenarios.

Blockade Fleets (+Combat, since the CSA will constantly attack these anyway) - I'm wondering if 1-2 Frigates with a heavy dose of Sloop-of-Wars and/or Gunboats might be the more efficient blockade/combat fleet setup. Neither of the smaller ships reduce the fleet's speed, and you still get the Frigates as the flagship + primary target for the opponents. Their mix of light armor + better ranged weapons and smaller capacity makes them look pretty nice to me.

Fort-Busting Fleets - For fresh fleet builds, I'm wondering if the Side-wheel Frigate is a much nicer choice than it seems to be at first glance. At least, I only saw references to Steam Frigates as Frigate alternatives when I was searching old threads. The penetration value of the 150-pounder Rifle is the best of any pre-Ironclad gun available, and it's the longest ranged weapon I see for Union producible vessels. It still carries a heavy provisions capacity, but the ammunition burden is so much lighter, for what looks to me to be a step up in actual combat power. The Double-Ender sure looks nice as a cheap/expendable "glass cannon" option as well, with that 100-pounder Rifle. 0 Armor is what gives me pause, though. The Sloop-of-war might still be the better option here, with the combination of 0.5 armor and zero machine parts required to build.

Oddly enough, I've had some success taking that stupid fort in NC that every Union fleet tries to suicide into going to/from home ports (forget the name offhand, but it's by the Morehead port) just by taking a 9-ship fleet of Frigates + the Ship-of-the-Line starting units for the Union and throwing them at it. Not sure how sustainable that is, but my thinking was that I'd probably take a couple of those standalone CSA forts before the obsolete hulks get sunk and reduce my fleet upkeep anyway. Getting that Morehead port as a repair/replenish site for the southern Atlantic blockade fleets is a nice bonus as well, as an aside.

In any case, whether it's Obsolete starting ships or captured CSA 4th Rate Steamers, I am 100% off the "scrap ships that aren't top end options" bandwagon now. I have serious regrets about doing so earlier in my game when I was really piling up the captured ships, when I was on the "you're not a Frigate, Sloop, or Brig, so you're worthless!" It would appear that the naval upkeep impact of building fresh large ships is such that I'd have to think that waiting for the smaller captured ships to get repaired to help fill out later blockade fleets will be the superior option. If the big, fat, old Ships-of-the-Line can actually put those 74 cannons of theirs to productive use against forts, then it's well worth waiting on them to get sea-worthy at the start of the game as well.

EDIT - I should clarity for full disclosure here - when I speak to "I've had some success", I'm still the newb playing on the lowest difficulty/aggression settings. It's entirely possible that my fleet from the Morehead port attack would be at the bottom of the ocean at higher difficulty levels. I'm only playing my 3rd campaign ever at this point, still trying to learn the mechanics of the economy + navy in particular, since the land battles seem pretty straightforward. So caveats apply to any of my in-game experiences.

[Wrigley]

One thing I've noticed personally is that frigates, steam or sail, seem prone to ammo detonations sinking them. When it's a "major" battle and not just mopping up 4th rate steamers, I often lose 2 per battle to those. That's a big downside given how expensive in money but especially time they are to build.

[Stone]

Ok, I've just spent time looking though the manual and the mod excel sheet. We know the frigate death stack works for forts but as others have brought up they are so expensive on supply. Looking though the files i see the sloop of war holds the same armor value, is once again a sailing ship so no coal needs, and is available early. My Fort fleet will probably stay as a standard frigate death stack. 1 of these don't cost me much since it's only for taking and then protecting forts. The double enders i avoid. I've lost so many to ammo explosions that i dont find it cost effective.

[JMDurron]

Within the same game where I've noticed the resource drain, I'm going to try the following early blockade fleet - 2-3 Frigates, 3 Sloops of War, and 3 Gunboats. Also lets me deploy 3 fleets in one set of 9 hulls per type in a build cycle. I may then do another set of 9 Sloops of War and 9 Gunboats, and spread out the Frigates to 1-2 per fleet, filling things out with captured/repaired 4th raters.

[A_P_Hill]

When doing the costs, do not forget to include "Repair". Wooden ships get damaged during engagements, that damage needs to be repaired to keep the ships in working order so that would be lumber and lots of it. Steam Frigates also involve sail and steam for power and both those energy sources can also be damaged during engagements. So lots of canvas, and lots of machine parts.

I have a CSA fleet in harbor now undergoing repairs and yeah, it takes a long time. Especially on the CSA Economy. I can never seem to get above a triple C economy so all this stuff hurts me financially in the overall.

[GreatScots]

So I was working on this tutorial anyways, and since there's some interest in the subject, I've just published it. Again, it's really a "to the best of my knowledge" rather than a tutorial, but it's something: https://youtu.be/liL4HApG82Q

[Gray Mauser]

Side question for you all:

Does anyone know how the game determines where the fleet supplies from? Is it the closest port to it's current location? Or does it re-supply from the port if was made in?

[JMDurron]

Originally posted by A_P_Hill:

When doing the costs, do not forget to include "Repair". Wooden ships get damaged during engagements, that damage needs to be repaired to keep the ships in working order so that would be lumber and lots of it. Steam Frigates also involve sail and steam for power and both those energy sources can also be damaged during engagements. So lots of canvas, and lots of machine parts.

I have a CSA fleet in harbor now undergoing repairs and yeah, it takes a long time. Especially on the CSA Economy. I can never seem to get above a triple C economy so all this stuff hurts me financially in the overall.

The extra resource constraints on the CSA side is a big part of why I'm trying to figure this out while playing as the Union instead of in a CSA campaign.

Step 1 - Figure out the ideal solution (applicable to Union)
Step 2 - Figure out best adaptation of ideal solution that's workable with the smaller economy (CSA edition)
-- I currently suspect that the "cottonclad rams for naval combat vs wooden Union fleets" guidance from GreatScots (I'm 95% sure it was in the previous naval tutorial video) will still apply for CSA fleets.