CSA Campaign 1863 (Lee's Missing Units)

[coltonstddrd]

I have Noticed that when I play the Spring 1863 Campaign as the Confederates, That Jenkins SC Infantry Brigade and Corse's VA Infantry Brigade are Missing form the Roster

[mogami_99]

When the Army of Northern Virginia moved northward neither brigade was recalled. Corses brigade continued on garrison duty in the Blackwater River area. Jenkins brigade was used for policing duties in Petersburg and Richmond.
In short look for them else where.
I looked. They should not be with Lee but they are not anywhere. Or perhaps they should be with Lee and were detached after the start of the scenario

[cmdrsam3]

Mog has it correct. Think there is a cav brigade or two as well. Guarded Lee's train during his retreat from Gettysburg. Alot of cav action during the retreat. Meade often gets blamed for not chasing Lee's army. But he did, and looked for battle. But not at risking aloss. You would be surprised at how bad supply was for the Union. Wasnt the ammo that was the issue. Food, Forage, uniforms all were in need. We think CSA didnt have shoes, but some in Union army didnt as well.

[mogami_99]

Originally posted by cmdrsam3:

Mog has it correct. Think there is a cav brigade or two as well. Guarded Lee's train during his retreat from Gettysburg. Alot of cav action during the retreat. Meade often gets blamed for not chasing Lee's army. But he did, and looked for battle. But not at risking aloss. You would be surprised at how bad supply was for the Union. Wasnt the ammo that was the issue. Food, Forage, uniforms all were in need. We think CSA didnt have shoes, but some in Union army didnt as well.

The Union pursuit was hampered by among the things already listed. It was raining, The horses were spent, There was a huge amount of work to be done just on the battlefield. And yet the Union pursuit did inflict damage on the retreating enemy it was a wonder Lee got back across the river to safety. The people who criticized all later retracted the criticism.

[JohnnyReb]

Originally posted by mogami_99:

Originally posted by cmdrsam3:

Mog has it correct. Think there is a cav brigade or two as well. Guarded Lee's train during his retreat from Gettysburg. Alot of cav action during the retreat. Meade often gets blamed for not chasing Lee's army. But he did, and looked for battle. But not at risking aloss. You would be surprised at how bad supply was for the Union. Wasnt the ammo that was the issue. Food, Forage, uniforms all were in need. We think CSA didnt have shoes, but some in Union army didnt as well.

The Union pursuit was hampered by among the things already listed. It was raining, The horses were spent, There was a huge amount of work to be done just on the battlefield. And yet the Union pursuit did inflict damage on the retreating enemy it was a wonder Lee got back across the river to safety. The people who criticized all later retracted the criticism.

Do you have a source for this info? Between the rain and Meade being under orders to remain between his enemy and Washington as well as protect several other important cities north of the Potomac I’ve never heard of any worthwhile pursuit made by Meade. In fact from what I’ve read Lee was hoping Meade would pursue as he was ready for it.

[mogami_99]

Retreat from Gettysburg: Lee, Logistics, and the Pennsylvania Campaign (Civil War America)
Kent Masterson Brown

[mogami_99]

Combat operations, primarily cavalry battles, raids, and skirmishes, occurred during the retreat at Fairfield (July 3), Monterey Pass (July 4–5), Smithsburg (July 5), Hagerstown (July 6 and 12), Boonsboro (July 8), Funkstown (July 7 and 10), and around Williamsport and Falling Waters (July 6–14). Additional clashes after the armies crossed the Potomac occurred at Shepherdstown (July 16) and Manassas Gap (July 23) in Virginia, ending the Gettysburg Campaign of June and July 1863.

The Confederates suffered over 5,000 casualties during the retreat, including more than 1,000 captured at Monterey Pass, 1,000 stragglers captured from the wagon train by Gregg's division, 500 at Cunningham's Crossroads, 1,000 captured at Falling Waters, and 460 cavalrymen and 300 infantry and artillery killed, wounded, and missing during the ten days of skirmishes and battles There were over 1,000 Union casualties—primarily cavalrymen—including losses of 263 from Kilpatrick's division at Hagerstown and 120 from Buford's division at Williamsport.

J. Johnston Pettigrew commanding the rear guard was mortally wounded on July 14th

CSA lossess during the campaign were some 27000 so 20% of the total came during the retreat

[JohnnyReb]

Originally posted by mogami_99:

Retreat from Gettysburg: Lee, Logistics, and the Pennsylvania Campaign (Civil War America)
Kent Masterson Brown

Thanks I’ll definitely check that out! I suppose you could consider Meades actions after the battle as a pursuit but the cavalry actions of Buford and Kilpatrick are not enough for me to feel like Meade was actually trying to stop Lee. If he would've attacked at Williamsport I would give him more credit but to me Meade is a step above McClellan and not a large step lol i think he gets a lot more credit than deserved because we glorify gettysburg as this great turning point but it only seems that way looking back on it. At the time it was just another bloody battle that didn’t end the war. Meade again and again fainted an attack then failed to follow through. Meade was a good corps commander in my opinion but far to timid for army command I think grant saved his reputation. All this is clearly just my opinion not trying to be an ass or anything just an opinionated civil war buff lol

[Gorilla]

I've always been of the opinion that an actual pursuit and battle right after Gettysburg was beyond the means of the Army of the Potomac. They won Gettysburg but it was a close affair, closer than most realize. Two corps were rendered combat ineffective, and Meade had to get his wounded secured and supplies brought up. In addition, the troops badly needed rest. Then we factor in the weather and orders from Washington that hamstrung him as well. Also, Meade would have known that Stuart was out there now, so he couldn't reasonably expect to get the drop on Lee again. Hindsight is of course 20/20 but I don't think Meade can really be criticized for not pursuing Lee with more vigor after Gettysburg.

[JohnnyReb]

Originally posted by ethelynr:

I've always been of the opinion that an actual pursuit and battle right after Gettysburg was beyond the means of the Army of the Potomac. They won Gettysburg but it was a close affair, closer than most realize. Two corps were rendered combat ineffective, and Meade had to get his wounded secured and supplies brought up. In addition, the troops badly needed rest. Then we factor in the weather and orders from Washington that hamstrung him as well. Also, Meade would have known that Stuart was out there now, so he couldn't reasonably expect to get the drop on Lee again. Hindsight is of course 20/20 but I don't think Meade can really be criticized for not pursuing Lee with more vigor after Gettysburg.

Here’s Lincoln’s thoughts on it. Though he never sent this letter as it would’ve done no good, it clearly shows that he was extremely disappointed in Meade following the battle of Gettysburg.

From Abraham Lincoln to George G. Meade [Draft], July 14, 1863
Executive Mansion,
Washington, July 14, 1863.

Major General Meade

I have just seen your despatch to Gen. Halleck, asking to be relieved of your command, because of a supposed censure of mine-- I am very -- very -- grateful to you for the magnificent success you gave the cause of the country at Gettysburg; and I am sorry now to be the author of the slightest pain to you-- But I was in such deep distress myself that I could not restrain some expression of it-- I had been oppressed nearly ever since the battles at Gettysburg, by what appeared to be evidences that your self, and Gen. Couch, and Gen. Smith, were not seeking a collision with the enemy, but were trying to get him across the river without another battle. What these evidences were, if you please, I hope to tell you at some time, when we shall both feel better. The case, summarily stated is this. You fought and beat the enemy at Gettysburg; and, of course, to say the least, his loss was as great as yours-- He retreated; and you did not; as it seemed to me, pressingly pursue him; but a flood in the river detained him, till, by slow degrees, you were again upon him. You had at least twenty thousand veteran troops directly with you, and as many more raw ones within supporting distance, all in addition to those who fought with you at Gettysburg; while it was not possible that he had received a single recruit; and yet you stood and let the flood run down, bridges be built, and the enemy move away at his leisure, without attacking him. And Couch and Smith! The latter left Carlisle in time, upon all ordinary calculation, to have aided you in the last battle at Gettysburg; but he did not arrive-- More At the end of more than ten days, I believe twelve, under constant urging, he reached Hagerstown from Carlisle, which is not an inch over fifty-five miles, if so much. And Couch's movement was very little different--

Again, my dear general, I do not believe you appreciate the magnitude of the misfortune involved in Lee's escape-- He was within your easy grasp, and to have closed upon him would, in connection with the our other late successes, have ended the war-- As it is, the war will be prolonged indefinitely. If you could not safely attack Lee last Monday, how can you possibly do so South of the river, when you can take with you very few more then two thirds of the force you then had in hand? It would be unreasonable to expect, and I do not expect you can now effect much. Your golden opportunity is gone, and I am distressed immeasurably because of it--

I beg you will not consider this a prosecution, or persecution of yourself-- As you had learned that I was dissatisfied, I have thought it best to kindly tell you why.

[ Endorsed on Envelope by Lincoln:]

To Gen. Meade, never sent, or signed.

[mogami_99]

As I said all who criticized him later took it back. When Grant read the reports he thought what had been accomplished (those added 5000 CSA losses) was actually pretty impressive.
Grant had been there done that as far as pursuits went (Shiloh)

[JohnnyReb]

Originally posted by mogami_99:

As I said all who criticized him later took it back. When Grant read the reports he thought what had been accomplished (those added 5000 CSA losses) was actually pretty impressive.
Grant had been there done that as far as pursuits went (Shiloh)

Yes if you go by what everyone said years later then yes he was brilliant after Gettysburg. But during the war this was not the case.
And it seems like Alan Pinkerton may be giving you your casualty estimate. I’ve never seen a contemporary report that shows 5,000 confederate casualties during the retreat from Gettysburg.

[Mr. Breeze]

[


Yes if you go by what everyone said years later then yes he was brilliant after Gettysburg. But during the war this was not the case.
And it seems like Alan Pinkerton may be giving you your casualty estimate. I’ve never seen a contemporary report that shows 5,000 confederate casualties during the retreat from Gettysburg. [/quote]
Actually it was George Briton McClellan that gave those estimates... and we know how good he was at that

[JohnnyReb]

Originally posted by Mr. Breeze:

[


Yes if you go by what everyone said years later then yes he was brilliant after Gettysburg. But during the war this was not the case.
And it seems like Alan Pinkerton may be giving you your casualty estimate. I’ve never seen a contemporary report that shows 5,000 confederate casualties during the retreat from Gettysburg.

Actually it was George Briton McClellan that gave those estimates... and we know how good he was at that [/quote]

Well you gotta admit his logic was sound. Claim that you’re facing hundreds of thousands of rebs and you’ll either get all the reinforcements you want or at very least you’ll have something to blame your failure on. I think Mac could’ve been great but he was crippled by his fear of not living up to expectations and he was always trying not to lose rather than trying to win. That’s my two cent psychoanalysis at least lol

[JohnnyReb]

Everyone tired to win with the pen what was lost with the sword, and that does not just go for the defeated confederates. Many many accounts during the war were ignored or flat out rewritten afterwards to fit the new narrative on both sides. The south needed to push the lost cause narrative that they only lost due to the overwhelming superiority of the Union. And since the union was the victor it had no need Of assigning blame so most post war accounts speak of valor and immediate reconciliation after the war. I place much higher stock in what was written at the time or at least immediately after. Typically memoirs are skewed one way or the other. Battle reports and personal correspondence will give you a far more accurate account that any book written after the war.

[coltonstddrd]

I'm not denying any of the Historical Comments but my topic had more to do with the In Game order of battle missing quite a few units for the Campaign of 63 as the Confederates. I just picked the two Brigades as a example since they existed in 1862 and honestly that was my main point.