Uncomfortable About Mary vs. Joseph, and Craig/Robert Route (Spoilers)

[Soycrates]

So yeah, of course there is a lot of controversy surrounding Joseph's supposed secret ending involving cults and murder, but what I'm talking about is strictly confirmed content in the game.

When we first meet Mary, our character is so unbelievably rude to her just because we think she wants in our pants ("how can I make this drunken, aged women get away from me! weh! cooties!"), which (spoilers) eventually we learn pretty clearly from Robert and Neil that Mary doesn't sleep with other men. Whenever Mary shows up, we complain nonstop that we don't get alone time with Robert, as if gay men can't hang out in a social setting where straight women exist. Mary is Robert's friend and all we try to do is get rid of her at every turn because all we're thinking about is hot knife dad ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. The game doesn't stop describing all the men Mary hits on as being extremely uncomfortable with it, which just portrays Mary with an immoral, sex-hungry harpy trope far more than it needed to in order to get its point across about Mary and Joseph having a bad relationship. They didn't draw her character art as nearly as ugly as the dialogue wants to slander her with, as what I'm looking at is a slightly dishevelled MILF who could easily pick up barflies, and not some withered old hag making men uncomfortable with her mere existence.

But Joseph, who (if you choose) does cheat on his wife (or if you prefer: leaves her, sleeps with you, and then immediately gets back together with his wife and either dumps you, or keeps you as a dirty little secret indefinitely) is going to be defended fervently both by the dialogue of the game and the fans because he's exploring sexuality he repressed for his religious beliefs? Joseph and Mary are equally complicit in their failing relationship, with Joseph regularly trying to escape his problems in just as unsuccessful ways as Mary. It shouldn't matter if it's shots of whiskey or secret Margaritas in the church basement, they both have nearly the same faults as one another. Yet Mary is portrayed and spoken about in almost black-and-white terms, and Joseph is portrayed and spoken about with sympathy.

Compound the way single moms are portrayed in Craig's dates (which I found pretty ♥♥♥♥ing abysmal, and reinforcing the "sexually aggressive harpies" trope that Mary gets pegged under) I think that DDADDS has a women problem. You don't need to want to have sex with women to treat them and portray them as people! Presumably, with no complaints from me about how this is a strictly gay male dating simulator, a game about DADs pretty much requires a good chunk of the characters to be bisexual, unless they adopted their kid. Why is it the single dads we can romance are written with so much empathy for the hardships of single parenthood, but the bystanding single moms are written like man hungry psychopaths? And why are so many of the romanceable characters written as if they're so unbelievably grossed out by women?! Most of these characters have daughters of their own, how (hypothetically) would they feel when these daughters grow up into women?

[sailormars]

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ i couldnt have put any of this better??? the misogyny in the game made me so uncomfortable as a queer woman and honestly it ruined a lot of the supposed "wholesomeness" of the game for me. i thought i was the only one, haha.

[FoxScribbles]

I don't know. Most people who complain about Joseph's ending aren't out cheering for Mary's destruction. They see it as a bad marriage where both parties are miserable and should no longer be married.

The bartender will tell you that Mary never goes home with all the men she flirts with (although, she does go off with that one dude from Robert's tour group in the third date with him. So I'm pretty sure she isn't exactly on the fidelity path any more than Joseph is.)

The game itself has issues with how it's written when it comes to Joseph and Mary's story. It practices the whiplash technique, poor twists, and suffers from some illogical flow. Mary is supposed to be terrible at the start to trick the player. Their entire storyline is there for it's "GOTCHA!" moments. For the most part, it lacks foreshadowing for how terrible the endings for either Mary and Joseph are.

So in that sense, Mary is a character treated as a cheap emotional device.

And yes, you have a point about the single women in Craig's storyline.

But I don't see that most of the characters were shown to be grossed out by women. You as the player have the choice of whether or not Amanda's other parent was a man or a woman and whether she was adopted or not.

Joseph (however bad his storyline is, and it's bad), Craig, Robert, and Mat are all at the least bisexual. I can't remember about Brian and Damien, but I think Brian also had a wife? I sped through his story a lot, so I don't remember his details. Hugo is the only one who strictly had male partners as far as we know.

And if you look at the guys who had wives:

Joseph has a bad relationship with Mary.
Craig had a good relationship with Smashley that went sour.
Robert loved his wife, but had personal issues that he still feels terrible about saddling her with.
Mat adored his wife and still mourns her even after all these years, feeling like he can't do music without her.

Robert and Mat don't show any disgust towards women. And I don't recall Brian, Damien, or Hugo showing any either. So we have Joseph and his messed up, poorly made story with Mary. And we have Craig and the sports moms (which, honestly, is a little realistic if you've ever hung around those sorts of moms.) With five guys who are either bisexual or gay who don't show aversion to women.

It's a gay dad simulator. You're not going to run off with a woman any more than you would run off with a dude in one of the many "Men date girls!" simulators.

Yes, there are issues in the game. But it's not an overall message of "Girls are icky!"

[BGM]

Yeah, Mary's treatment in Joseph's route is abysmal, and in Robert's it's a mixed bag.

I'd say Mary's character shines the brightest in Damien's 3rd date/epilogue, as it's probably the most unambiguously sympathetic and positive portrayal of her overall. You find out she's one of Damien's best friends, frequently volunteers at the local animal shelter (or owns it????), and draws you an adorable/hilarious map to help you on your journey.

Doesn't make up for how ready the PC is to dismiss her for the rest of the game, but it's something?

[Soycrates]

Originally posted by HibblyJibbly:

You as the player have the choice of whether or not Amanda's other parent was a man or a woman and whether she was adopted or not.

That choice isn't really reflected anywhere else in the game, I feel. It's like its briefly acknowledged that a lot of these characters could (not are, but could if you so choose to imagine it!) be bisexual (like being able to choose whether your deceased partner was a man or woman), but I don't know if there's a better way to word it: they're all written very bi-exclusionary. They're written so clearly as a means to say they're not interested in women, and it goes overboard in my eyes and makes the men who encounter women in their stories act very averse to those women at worst (who are again, all written like man-hungry harpies - I would challenge anyone who's played this game to find a supporting female character other than the daughters who is portrayed well).

Joseph (however bad his storyline is, and it's bad), Craig, Robert, and Mat are all at the least bisexual. I can't remember about Brian and Damien, but I think Brian also had a wife? I sped through his story a lot, so I don't remember his details. Hugo is the only one who strictly had male partners as far as we know.

My point is that you don't have to be bisexual to respect women. Wanting to have sex with women is not the precursor to personally treating them like you would any stranger if you were a polite human being.

It's a gay dad simulator. You're not going to run off with a woman any more than you would run off with a dude in one of the many "Men date girls!" simulators.

Again, I feel like this is huge misdirection of what I'm talking about. It's clearly a dad dating simulator, I'm not asking to romance women. I'm asking to treat them as human beings, and not belittle them for the sake of sympathizing with the male characters about how "hard" it must be for all these 'gross aging women' to take an interest in them. When the single moms mention how hard it is, it's just so the game can say "oh look, she wants to ♥♥♥♥ him" but when the dads do it, it's emotionally complex story driven gameplay?

Yes, there are issues in the game. But it's not an overall message of "Girls are icky!"

That's... how it comes off as in a lot of ways. Even the characters who aren't directly hit on are written as having to defend themselves from being associated with women (like when Mat's teen friend wants to hook him up with his mom!)

[unholy]

I might be too ready to give them a pass here, but I feel like the fact that the Dads don't respond to women with sexual/romantic interest is more to do with the fact that it's a dating sim than any misogyny on the part of the writers. The point is that your Dadsona is pursuing these men romantically; having them express an interest in being with someone else when you're out together would make them seem dickish. I agree that the softball mom is a little heavy-handed with Craig but I think this is to reinforce that your old marinara-drinking college roommate is now officially A Catch rather than to indicate she's "icky", and his lack of response is explained when he says he has no time to date.

As far as Mary is concerned, I have mixed feelings. With each dad route being so short I think it's assumed that we'll play more than once, and the way the story unfolds makes her a foil to Joseph. With Mary we see her and are encouraged to make a snap judgement that she's a lush, and as more unfolds we see that she's both deeply unhappy in her marriage and a good, protective friend to Robert and Damien. Joseph is the flipside of that - on date one your Dadsona reflects that Joseph's family is weird but Joseph seems great, and the further we go the more we see that he's not what he seems either; he puts on the happy, family-man front but has cheated on his wife at least once and seems very prepared to do so again. Before I played I was worried Maty would be irredeemably horrible to make us feel okay about pursuing a married man, and admittedly the first interaction with her did nothing to ease that worry, but as time went on I got to really like her. Things not always being as they seem is a pretty heavy theme in the game (Brian isn't the arrogant bastard we think, Damien's confident Goth presentation hides insecurities about how boring he feels he is, Craig's perfect life is a constant source of stress, etc). Then with the Christiansens we're shown that instead of being the drunken slag we might initially think, Mary is a caring person trying to get some reprieve from a difficult home life, and Joseph's perfect image is clearly a veneer.

It's my strong hope that once the Escape the Margarita Zone mystery is solved, it'll be because the walk Mary Home glitch is corrected - I like to think if you walk her home and are sympathetic to how difficult things are for her, that'll turn out to be the "could I have done something different?" the Dadsona mentions in Joseph's ending and the Christiansens will come to the conclusion that they would BOTH be happier apart. After all, Joseph's "Margarita Zone" is artificial, a temporary escape - maybe escaping that is facing reality and moving on.

[Darth Hernia]

Originally posted by scammerbroad:

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ i couldnt have put any of this better??? the misogyny in the game made me so uncomfortable as a queer woman and honestly it ruined a lot of the supposed "wholesomeness" of the game for me. i thought i was the only one, haha.

Please tell us more. I didn't find Mary's portrayal misogynistic. In fact I have family members that are just like her. But then I again I'm not a woman so I don't know better than you do. Care to elaborate?

Also I'd think when it comes to represent women one would look at Amanda and not Mary...

[non.horation]

Originally posted by Darth Hernia:

Please tell us more. I didn't find Mary's portrayal misogynistic. In fact I have family members that are just like her. But then I again I'm not a woman so I don't know better than you do. Care to elaborate?

Also I'd think when it comes to represent women one would look at Amanda and not Mary...

I'm not scammerbroad but I was also bothered a bit by the way the women were presented so I thought I'd add my two cents, haha. It's true that, aside from the daughters, any women even obliquely mentioned in the game are depicted as wild, man-hungry weirdoes who can't take a hint and won't leave the guys alone. Like obviously it's not that the men aren't interested in the women that bothers me (though honestly it IS weird how overdramatically random side character dudes who are less likely to be gay than the main characters are shown to be uncomfortable/nervous around Mary - like maybe some of them know she's married but they act like she's a leper) as much as how desperate and weird they all are. And considering that the only adult woman who doesn't spend pretty much her entire onscreen time throwing herself at men is Val, it seems like they're implying that the only reason a woman wouldn't act like that is if she was gay.

[Darth Hernia]

Originally posted by non.horation:

Originally posted by Darth Hernia:

Please tell us more. I didn't find Mary's portrayal misogynistic. In fact I have family members that are just like her. But then I again I'm not a woman so I don't know better than you do. Care to elaborate?

Also I'd think when it comes to represent women one would look at Amanda and not Mary...

I'm not scammerbroad but I was also bothered a bit by the way the women were presented so I thought I'd add my two cents, haha. It's true that, aside from the daughters, any women even obliquely mentioned in the game are depicted as wild, man-hungry weirdoes who can't take a hint and won't leave the guys alone. Like obviously it's not that the men aren't interested in the women that bothers me (though honestly it IS weird how overdramatically random side character dudes who are less likely to be gay than the main characters are shown to be uncomfortable/nervous around Mary - like maybe some of them know she's married but they act like she's a leper) as much as how desperate and weird they all are. And considering that the only adult woman who doesn't spend pretty much her entire onscreen time throwing herself at men is Val, it seems like they're implying that the only reason a woman wouldn't act like that is if she was gay.

Touche.

[thanatos101b]

Originally posted by Soycrates:

When we first meet Mary, our character is so unbelievably rude to her just because we think she wants in our pants ("how can I make this drunken, aged women get away from me! weh! cooties!"),

You are supposed to go on a character arc with Mary. Realizing she is a complicated, interesting person in her own right. Hence why if you follow Damien's path you wind up discovering Mary volenteers at an animal shelter.

You can't actually go on a character arc unless you have a starting place.

Originally posted by Soycrates:

Whenever Mary shows up, we complain nonstop that we don't get alone time with Robert, as if gay men can't hang out in a social setting where straight women exist.

First off, it is pretty fine to be annoyed that what you thought was a one-on-one date is actually a group hang. Secondly I don't know what choices you did, but at the end of the date, my Dadsona was having a good time with both Mary and Robert.

Originally posted by Soycrates:

Yet Mary is portrayed and spoken about in almost black-and-white terms, and Joseph is portrayed and spoken about with sympathy.

Umm... you are supposed to gain sympathy for Mary across the game. Such as if you make the right choices in "Walking Mary Home 1" and likely if "Walking Mary Home 2" wasn't bugged it would offer even more sympathy.

Originally posted by Soycrates:

That choice isn't really reflected anywhere else in the game, I feel.

Your former spouse is mentioned regularly throughout the game.

Originally posted by Soycrates:

how "hard" it must be for all these 'gross aging women' to take an interest in them.

The only main character I can recall actively being hit on by women is Craig, and he barely even seems aware it is happening. It is all commentary by your Dadsona, who is (of course) jealous.

Originally posted by Soycrates:

(who are again, all written like man-hungry harpies - I would challenge anyone who's played this game to find a supporting female character other than the daughters who is portrayed well).

The daughters are the main female characters in the game, and they are all written well. Your relationship with Amanda is given even more weight than your relationship with whomever you happen to be on a date with. And your interactions with the other daughters is informed by your interactions with your daughters (and let's not forget that the relationship between Amanda and the daughters of some of the dads you are dating is quite sweet).


Your statement here is saying, "if we ignore the five or six most important female characters in the game, then there's one female character who isn't portrayed well!"

[barbayat]

Originally posted by Darth Hernia:

Please tell us more. I didn't find Mary's portrayal misogynistic. In fact I have family members that are just like her. But then I again I'm not a woman so I don't know better than you do. Care to elaborate?

Also I'd think when it comes to represent women one would look at Amanda and not Mary...

Well, the thing is it isn't about whether any one person find's it misogynist, it's about the presentation as general. People who already have experience with how human beings act in real life and they deal with problems will see Mary as just that - a flawed person in a bad situation who needs help and not judgement.

But if you aren't like that, if you hold a lot of prejudice these things will just reinforce that.

My first impression of Mary wasn't positive, then again I disliked Robert way more, as I loathe alcohol and feel super uncomfy around people who drink too much, then I grew to like Mary, I could indentify with how hopeless and miserable she is and honestly was pissed when I couldn't walk her home a second time - not solely because of the Joseph ending, but because I wanted to be there for her as well.

But reading the OP, I just can't disagree with the points. I know the women hitting on Craig is mostly played as a joke "hihi look how hot Craig is" and I'm sure that was all that was intended but intend wasn't magical and on the second date with Craig, I felt rather iffy when even the random stranger women forced himself on him.

I think it would work just as well to cement how hot Craig is, if you have the women hit on him and then take the hint and leave.

[WorldsaStage]

Originally posted by Soycrates:

Originally posted by HibblyJibbly:

You as the player have the choice of whether or not Amanda's other parent was a man or a woman and whether she was adopted or not.

That choice isn't really reflected anywhere else in the game, I feel. It's like its briefly acknowledged that a lot of these characters could (not are, but could if you so choose to imagine it!) be bisexual (like being able to choose whether your deceased partner was a man or woman), but I don't know if there's a better way to word it: they're all written very bi-exclusionary. They're written so clearly as a means to say they're not interested in women, and it goes overboard in my eyes and makes the men who encounter women in their stories act very averse to those women at worst (who are again, all written like man-hungry harpies - I would challenge anyone who's played this game to find a supporting female character other than the daughters who is portrayed well).

Joseph (however bad his storyline is, and it's bad), Craig, Robert, and Mat are all at the least bisexual. I can't remember about Brian and Damien, but I think Brian also had a wife? I sped through his story a lot, so I don't remember his details. Hugo is the only one who strictly had male partners as far as we know.

My point is that you don't have to be bisexual to respect women. Wanting to have sex with women is not the precursor to personally treating them like you would any stranger if you were a polite human being.

It's a gay dad simulator. You're not going to run off with a woman any more than you would run off with a dude in one of the many "Men date girls!" simulators.

Again, I feel like this is huge misdirection of what I'm talking about. It's clearly a dad dating simulator, I'm not asking to romance women. I'm asking to treat them as human beings, and not belittle them for the sake of sympathizing with the male characters about how "hard" it must be for all these 'gross aging women' to take an interest in them. When the single moms mention how hard it is, it's just so the game can say "oh look, she wants to ♥♥♥♥ him" but when the dads do it, it's emotionally complex story driven gameplay?

Yes, there are issues in the game. But it's not an overall message of "Girls are icky!"

That's... how it comes off as in a lot of ways. Even the characters who aren't directly hit on are written as having to defend themselves from being associated with women (like when Mat's teen friend wants to hook him up with his mom!)

I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, just that if this makes you feel badly don't ever play a Japanese gay dating game. Women in them are nothing but rivals and/or shrill harpies and excuses to cheatand it always ends very badly for them.

[Mrimm]

Overall you're not wrong. We have very few adult women in this game and those we do don't come across great. The women hitting on Craig are over the top charicatures and play on some pretty misogynistic tropes, and there are few other adult women to balance that out. It does feel pretty icky.

Buuuuut... I don't know that I totally agree about Mary? I for one don't think you're Dadsona is particularly rude to Mary, other than in some of the dialogue options, but you can chose to be cordial in those moments. And while she originally comes off as another misogynistic trope, I think she becomes pretty well flushed out as a character by the end of the game if you play all the routes. I was pretty uncomfortable at the outset with how over-the-top awful she was portrayed (it definitely starts out feeling like she's set up as the worst possible wife/mother to make you feel better about persuing Joseph), but by the end of the game I didn't feel that way at all. To me she had become one of the most sympathetic characters, and perhaps one of my favourites. She becomes far too well rounded to be considered a trope anymore.

I also don't think it's fair to ignore the daughters when talking about the game's opinions about women. Sure, how they treat adult women versus children is important to look at, but the many daughters are important characters that showcase a lot of different ways to be girls, and I think that's worth remembering. Especially as Amanda is arguably the most important character in the game.

[StompMeFlat]

Meh, I don't think the game is that horrible to women.

Looking at the kids...

Amanda is well written, smarty, and spunky. Her relationship with Dadsona has been highly praised and many people love her.

Daisy is extremely smart and sweet.

Craig's Twins- Successful in sports, seem nice and smart. Not much screen time.

Carmensita has VERY little screen time, but it's made clear she is smart and nice.

Meanwhile...

Ernest- Angry and dumb. Trouble.

Lucien- Angry and weird. Trouble.

Chris- Unhappy and weird.

Christain/Christie- REALLY weird. And Christie gets a LITTLE more personality and actually is quite cute in the kitchen. Christain literally gets nothing to redeem him.

Colin- The bully at school that gets called out by Hugo and makes a fool of himself


Really and truly in terms of children, the girls got it A LOT better than the boys. Seeing as the boys are mostly mean and dumb. The girls get to be smart and sweet as even Christie gets a cute moment.



Moving on... to Mary.

She is a drunken hoe that is a terrible wife and mother. Sorry fans, that's her. The Dadsona is rude to her? What about her at the freaking party? She pretty much is always insulting and belittling you. And she is flirting with you over the top and she runs off (leaving her "friends") to spend time with a guy who accepted her advances on the tour. Joseph may not of lied about them splitting up, it's pretty easy to picture her in a drunken rage and him getting fed up with her snarky remarks and them seperating. To simply put on the fakeness the next day that everything is "peachy." I don't care if you like or dislike Joseph, there are glaring faults of Mary that showcase she is pretty terrible. Hell, Robert probably slept with both of them. >.>



Moving on to Craig's fans...

Egh, I think it's pretty accurate in this sense. A man as hot, nice, and good with kids in a environment full of parents (which ofc would include single women) would face some strong advances. I think it was just to show how much was on Craig's plate. He really couldn't ever relax cause even after games or at restaunts he had people wanting things from him. Craig was one of the best written imo. And I think showing him trying to run from the constant pressure coming from all angles played into his breakdowns in the last date. He bonded with you cause you were memories to his past, where he wasn't being pulled 100 ways.


And if we speak of stereotypes, isn't it also true about the blond white guy turning out to be evil/selfish pretty overdone as well? Or that the black guy has to be the smartest and assert how smart he is right away to make the game not look racist? The BBQ where they make it plainly obvious Craig can't keep up with their smart talk was a bit much. There's always something you can be triggered by if you overthink it.

[WorldsaStage]

Yeah from what I saw Mary doesnt give a solid damn about her kids, especially her youngest. People like to put Mary on a cross I think.

Also, for the love of god stop getting triggered by everything people. Christ.

I know the game is catering to the streamer/tumblr crowd but damn...

[sumin6587]

i can't agree more. i love mary and i hate myself making her player's enemy.