thoughts on joseph's secret ending

[soop]

i've thought about the cult ending a lot, and it honestly still breaks my heart. i know some of you are really excited about it, and I'm genuinely happy for you, but i personally felt it to be extremely upsetting to the point where i don't know if i can touch this game again.

it’s not that i can’t handle a twist either, but this felt like cheap shock value more than anything else imo to write a character as so (seemingly) genuinely sweet and kindhearted and then flip it on us "haha you really thought he loved you? well he actually wants to kill you and your family!" like it's one thing to just reveal him to actually be a jerk and another to reveal that he's actually a murderous sociopath...

this whole thing has left a really bad taste in my mouth and i can't even really enjoy the other routes because of something joseph says in the level 18 text about him being the real reason they all live in the same area, have unhappy lives, dead spouses, etc. it just completely sours the tone of the ENTIRE game, which i feel was irresponsible and poor writing for something marketed as very wholesome, especially considering its LGBT ties- joseph's story could've been about the struggles of religion and coming out, instead they just pull a camp trope of him as a hypersexual demon who preys on men.

overall i feel like maybe the only way this ♥♥♥♥ed up shock ending would be ok is if they gave him a legitimate good ending as well like they did all the other routes, but for him to have a neutral (which is apparently the good end), bad, and EVIL ending is so sadistic and i don't know if i can play this game anymore.

(and yes i know some people will find this overly sensitive of me, but from what i've seen a lot of people have felt similarly so i thought i'd make a post where we could discuss what we think of this ending, rather than all the threads just trying to figure out how to get it)

EDIT: spaced out paragraphs for accessibility

[Death by coughs]

Originally posted by Sentientmonkey:

I think what gets to me about this is that, while Hatoful Boyfriend is a huge joke because nobody really wants to date a pidgeon, Dream Daddy is about a very real kind of relationship. It's rare, but real. It isn't pornographic, it isn't really anything but sweet. If there were some sort of crazy ending that didn't really impact anything else, that would be funny. But this ending reaches back and changes the context of the entire game. It's almost like the devs didn't actually think this kind of story would resonate with anyone, or that anyone genuinely wanted the premise. Overall, I'd just say it's hugely disappointing. They took something that could have been sweet and good and perverted it.

But the game still is sweet. A secret ending doesn't sudenly remove all of the other endings, emotions, and experiences from the game. It's an add on, an extra path, and that's all.

[EB_EXE]

I would agree with a lot of what is said here. Joseph, at first glance, is a great conduit for queer storytelling. It is almost a trope in of itself to have the religion vs homosexuality storeyline but at the same time it is still very prevalent experience for a lot of queer individuals. Even as we get in deeper and it becomes clear that Joseph is more comfortable with their sexuality than we, the player, thought it still makes sense in the context of the game and its universe. I understand the notion of "this person isn't who they seem to be" and that is fair. Good writing should be able to show a characters transition and have it seem like a logical progression. If Joseph turned out to be an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ who just likes to string men on yet lives in the comfort of his marriage, that is fine. I'll be salty about, and boy was I when it first happened, but I got it. Dude didn't care enough about you to leave his wife and just liked a good ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. It is unsatisfactory as a player, and some might argue that that is good gameplay to make you feel like your character does, but after the initial shock it should be like "ah yes, fine, okay". Which is how people felt with the neutral Joseph ending, but once the info was leaked on cultlyfe people got really shocked. Granted, none of us have really played the ending so we don't know the entire scenario, but I'll wager that whoever beats it first and posts about it will probably fill us in on how much closure they felt.

My problem arises from the crazy cult aspect of it. Yes, it's almost a visual novel staple at this point that there was a secret organization pulling strings the whole time. How else would you have found yourself in this unique situation? However it seems almost like a "oh ♥♥♥♥ it's a VN, we gotta do this, it'll totally goof 'em!" and goof em they did but in a rather hamfisted way. Who all is apart of it? Are there easter eggs in other locations to indicate the nature of the cult? Does the coffee shop have random cult pamphlets? I think were there more indication and hints throughout the game players could've pieced it together. Having some prior knowledge of "something isn't right" beyond Robert saying Joseph was a bad dude but an indication of the cult itself outside of our boi Joseph. If you're giving me a cult and telling me it's your big twist, you gotta tell me more.

Overall it has turned me off a bit, I'll probably take a break until someone actually gets the ending so I can watch it and see if it's worth subjecting my bonofied wholesome dad through hell and back. My personal dream would be that after completing the ending, Saul Graves (the single father detective), becomes available as a final, secret daddy and by doing his dates you uncover the entire plot of Dream Daddy. Unfortunately for me, there's nothing datamined to support this but one can dream.

EDIT: Sentientmonkey below mentioned that there are clues, so I'm back on my ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. HonestlY i took a break so I haven't gone back for clues, thank you Sntientmonkey for doing the lord's work.

[Sentientmonkey]

Originally posted by Hobo In Pain:

Originally posted by Sentientmonkey:

I think what gets to me about this is that, while Hatoful Boyfriend is a huge joke because nobody really wants to date a pidgeon, Dream Daddy is about a very real kind of relationship. It's rare, but real. It isn't pornographic, it isn't really anything but sweet. If there were some sort of crazy ending that didn't really impact anything else, that would be funny. But this ending reaches back and changes the context of the entire game. It's almost like the devs didn't actually think this kind of story would resonate with anyone, or that anyone genuinely wanted the premise. Overall, I'd just say it's hugely disappointing. They took something that could have been sweet and good and perverted it.

But the game still is sweet. A secret ending doesn't sudenly remove all of the other endings, emotions, and experiences from the game. It's an add on, an extra path, and that's all.

That's the thing though, I'm playing through another route (Hugo) and I keep finding clues. That symbol hidden in backgrounds, one-off remarks that don't sound suspicious unless you know the context. Even if you don't find out that route, it's still pretty much going on.

[gayspaceworm]

Originally posted by Intergalacticlotus:

God, I'm so glad I'm not the only one who thinks like this.

I was just talking to my datemate about how disappointed and upset the secret ending made me feel and how they could have played this differently, showing like, the struggle of internalized homophobia, religion vs. homosexuality, compulsory heterosexuality, and so on and so forth, and how they pulled this whole mess instead. Like yeah, cool twist or whatever, but you can't deny it has some negative and unfortunate implications that will easily make a bunch of people really uncomfortable.

Overall this issue leaves me with such a bad aftertaste despite being all excited about finally getting to play yesterday... I just can't see the game the same way anymore.

I genuinely think the storyline we got with Joseph's 'bad ending' was way more interesting and well-thought out than a repressed religious plot. I genuinely don't know how people think that the repressed gay Christian would be a new take on LGBT issues, as if it hasn't been explored a hundred times over with a very similar storyline. That's why it's the conclusion everyone jumped to, and they sort of framed it as before they made the situation more complex. IMO it's so common to frame the wife of a 'repressed homosexual' as this uncaring person who ~doesn't understand him~, and is a barrier to her husband discovering his ~true self~. Instead there are small moments littered around the game that Mary is a fleshed out human being, who is genuinely sweet at times. Joseph isn't this perfect sweety who is just a victim of a loveless marriage. And how the hell could he be? Marriage is a two-way street, and the very concept of the game means he will be emotionally cheating on his wife. To make his storyline as easy as that would be one-dimensional writing.

I think the bad ending (and what I think of as Joseph's true ending) takes the rug from under us in a realistic way. The game doesn't allow you to play pretend that cheating can be this awakening beautiful fairytale love affair cos it never really is. I think its perfect.

[Spoink]

Holy ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ batman, yes I also hate the idea of the cult ending and a psycho Joseph.
The way this is all going down reminds me a bit of another visual novel on Steam called An Octave Higher. There are the lighthearted, normal endings and the deeper endings.

I'm just telling myself that if that cult ending is real, that it's a crack ending and not canon. It's a little hard to convince myself of that when, as Sentientmonkey mentioned, there are little symbols and certain things sounding suspicious (which could just be me being paranoid). If there are things like that put in the game, as well as pictures and text to go with it, it's hard to dismiss that effort as being something not real or a joke.

My beef is that I signed up for something lighthearted and something that would make me laugh. Having the knowledge that the cult ending could be real is like having all these feelings and dread that I didn't order.

But yes, for now, I'm exercising my power as a spectator to this story, to simply dismiss the things I don't like as canon, haha.

[Spooky]

Yeah, I and a few friends of mine feel this same exact way.

It's especially jarring because a lot of this demonizes closeted bi/gay youth ministers. It really demonizes a character who could have been compelling and an interesting conduit that turns a trope on its head. Instead, it just plays into a typical japanese dating sim trope while also being harmful to individuals who are closeted bi/gay religious individuals.

Just finding out about it has turned me off to the game in its entirety. I liked these characters a lot, but if they're just gonna cater to some M. Night Shamalayan twist and Lovecraftian trope, all of which is overdone in these dating sim games, then what's even the point of playing the game at all?

I'm gonna wait out and see if it's just a hoax, but as it's looking, I'm starting to believe it's Joseph's true ending. None of it sits well with me, and I'm kinda starting to regret buying the game now. I thought this was something wholesome that caters to my tastes; there's not a lot of video games out there that lets you date hot dudes without being pornographic. But now it's not even that.

Originally posted by Sentientmonkey:

Originally posted by Hobo In Pain:

But the game still is sweet. A secret ending doesn't sudenly remove all of the other endings, emotions, and experiences from the game. It's an add on, an extra path, and that's all.

That's the thing though, I'm playing through another route (Hugo) and I keep finding clues. That symbol hidden in backgrounds, one-off remarks that don't sound suspicious unless you know the context. Even if you don't find out that route, it's still pretty much going on.

And this really cinches it, for me.

Finding out about this not only perverts the game in its entirety, but it makes playing through everything worse. Because then you start finding things that contradict the sweet exterior of the game, that unearth the sinister edge that belies every part of it.

It's like finding out your favorite piece of candy is actually made out of human body parts. Oh, the candy's still gonna taste the same. It's still gonna be sweet. But now you know the truth and it literally taints it.

[cupcorgi]

I would be on board for it, except they're literally going for the Gay Stereotype of evil. Sex-obsessed Evil Gay who is ruining all the lives of the people around him by killing the wives and seducing the husbands. For sex demon energy. Also, it's a canon ending. Not even a secret joke one. It is literally happening in every route. Idk, they did so good with the rest of the game only to throw Predator Gay Seducing Your Husbands and Killing Your Women. Ick.

[Hullabaroo]

Originally posted by Solo:

Finding out about this not only perverts the game in its entirety, but it makes playing through everything worse. Because then you start finding things that contradict the sweet exterior of the game, that unearth the sinister edge that belies every part of it.

It's like finding out your favorite piece of candy is actually made out of human body parts. Oh, the candy's still gonna taste the same. It's still gonna be sweet. But now you know the truth and it literally taints it.

Exactly this.
It's the kind of ending that paints the entire game in a different light. If it were a contained incident I could swallow it easier, but it infects the entire game down to its core. Something that was once seen as light-hearted and sweet becomes twisted in an instant. It feels like a betrayal. It makes me feel like everything that's happened is disingenuous and my entire experience consequently sullied.

For me, it's far too left field in the context of this game. People bring up Hatoful Boyfriend, which I think could pull it off because of such a ridiculous premise. When it really comes down to it, Dream Daddy is actually pretty down to earth, heartfelt, and firmly grounded in its own brand of realism, which psychopaths and cults don't seem to fit into. While DDADDS does joke around, it also takes itself seriously when it comes down to it. Within the constraints the game has created for itself, this feels cheap and shoehorned in for extra edginess points.

[Cookie Cat]

I don't know if this ending is real but I'm just so sad... Joseph was literally the only dad I cared and there isn't even a good ending lmao thanks Dream Daddy I guess

[vickjawn]

100% all of this!!! A few friends of mine feel the same as well. I'm glad to know we're not the only ones feeling put-off! All this cult talk is souring my entire game experience because, like y'all said, this is supposed to be a wholesome heartfelt game and this ending just feels like some cheap attempt at shock value at the expense of queer religious folk who might be in the same shoes as Joseph. I'm all for crack non-canon endings, but if that’s honestly Joseph’s true ending - that his kindness towards your MC and his kids was all just an act - it’s gonna be a major let down for me. :/

[FoxScribbles]

I 100% agree. At first I felt really sad about this ending. It was so...forced. Especially when combined with the rest of the game or even the rest of the dads. I said elsehwere that it was more "The Happening" than "The Sixth Sense." It felt like it was made specifically for a "GOTCHA!" moment. Like the devs were trying to punish the player for liking him.

It is so out of place with every other character and every other ending. It's out of place with who Joseph is as a character. And it's a waste of an interesting story.

I was honestly excited for a gay/bi Christian minister. It isn't something that is often portrayed beyond a us vs them way, and when it is, it is portrayed badly. That Joseph was treated as somebody hip who seemed to genuinely like his kids, who seemed to genuinely want to help people - that was endearing. He felt like a truly three dimensional character with some terrible issues.


And instead you get a poorly done, 360 degree ending where he's either a jerk who dumps you or an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ who wants to keep boning you behind his wife's back. And then it's a "SURPRISE!" ending where the closeted religious man goes out having affairs on his wife, ruining other men's lives, bedding them, and killing them.

It feels tonally off.

It's a "BAD GAYS! WOO!" Ending. And it's a really, really bad 'twist'.

I still hold out hope that maybe the 'surprise cult ending' is part of the book series that Joseph is into. And that "Saul" is the detective from those books, and it's a dream like the one the Dadsona has about his father before Brian takes him fishing. But I just doubt it given how they messed over Joseph in the two endings most people have obtained.

[bluerosethegoldenwitch]

My main gripe with the ending is, that besides the total bait and switch feel, we're making a demony-cult-leader out of an established CHRISTIAN YOUTH MINISTER/LEADER/PASTOR/WHATEVER character.

Like, there aren't many gay representations period in the span of things, but there is even LESS Christian gay representation. And to make the local religious-oriented guy a cult leader is just super tacky and a serious drop of the ball.

Personally, I hate the homewrecking route. It just is super gross especially considering all the other dads are single, except him. And you can't complete the game without homewrecking their marriage. Doesn't matter if they're both already cheating or it's already falling apart; he's still committed and it's messed up.

I wouldn't have minded a more platonic-with-heavy-romance-tension about you trying to support him in a marriage that had already fallen apart and it was a matter of coming to terms/tying up loose ends and maybe the whole "mommy and daddy are about to get a divorce and the kids are acting super weird, mostly out of retaliation for whats going on" could've been one of those aspects. But you don't romance the guy until AFTER the official divorce/stuff has been finalized and sorted through.

Maybe Joseph was just hanging onto the past, but Mary wanted things done and him to sign the papers or w/e but he refuses. And you try to help sort him through his feelings/support him in the process.

Like, considering all the other routes are essentially about single dads finding support/romance in each other and BUILDING/repairing/supporting families, the whole homewrecking aspect sticks out like a sore thumb cause you're essentially breaking up one. Tbh I wouldn't even had mind it had they gone a polyamorous route. Cause at least you're still not cheating as long as everyone is agreeing to the set up. But it sounds like all the involvement you have with Joseph rips Mary up and that's messed up. And you shouldn't HAVE to go down a route just to complete the whole game.

Idk, I have my own separate thoughts about the cult leader ending, but even without that, I felt like they really dropped the ball on Joseph's route in general. If this was a "drama-fest" kind of romance game or homewrecking kind of romance game, I think it would fit better. But in a game where essentially you merge families and help support dads repair their own family relations and romantically pursue them in the process; it really feels out of place.

If they wanted Joseph to be an antagonist, they should've committed to it. Cause he's certainly set up to be like that, even without the cult leader route.

[Jack Beauregard]

Pfff, I just went to bed with my laptop and thought, hey, browse the discussions a bit while drifting to sleep and now I got up to plug in the "real" keyboard for this. As I see it, there are many layers to the problem, so be warned, this might be long.

I hope I'm not completely out of the loop but as far as I'm informed, the ending hasn't been unlocked yet, correct? It's all a big treasure hunt, right? Everything I'm going to say is based on that and it's all opinion.

I'm not excited about a cult ending but I'm not disappointed or angry yet.

I'm not a big fan of cult endings in general, they were nice in the past but for me, their appeal ended with The Brotherhood of the Wolf. That was the last great story that ended with a cult beintg the big twist (and being a bit of a let down). Since then, as a twist, cult endings feel lazy.

So far, I lean towards careful optimism. Either the whole thing is a bait for data miners and won't be much more than the whole Gaster easter egg in Undertale. Or, if there's a cult ending to unlock, it's a gag and not canon. Like the ending with the aliens in Silent Hill or half of the endings of Chrono Trigger or other games where you can unlock rooms, endings, areas to find some silly nonsense that's entertaining and a reward for stubborn players but not canon (or, if you want a very simple example, letting Guybrush drown in Monkey Island).

If it turns out to be an easter egg or a joke ending (as in - not the true ending) I won't care much, I might even try to unlock it. If it's the true ending, the true secret, I'll throw a fit once that's confirmed.

That said, there's another thing that annoys me. This starts with a question: Is a dark twist, joke or not, necessary to create tension or conflict in the game?

My answer: No. There are enough deep, relatable conflicts. The struggle between job and private personality, worry that "childish" hobbies might ruin a reputation, coping with loss (divorce or death), experiencing a bad marriage, feeling outsmarted by the own child and hated... drinking, drugs, the heartache nostalgia can cause, burnout, empty nest syndrome... Those are all real conflicts and the game deals well with them and I find them extremely relatable and inteeresting, either because I've experienced similar situations or know people who have.

But - I'm 30+. These are all problems that matter a lot for people in their late twenties and older. That doesn't mean the younger audience doesn't get it but no matter how smart and emphatic they are, they don't feel the impact as people who are in these characters' situations do.

Another game had a similar theme. Night in the Woods. The narrative was appealing for gamers transitioning into adulthood but it was amazing for those old enough to be parents of at least teens themselves. Try to think of family shows or sitcoms you watched as a kid and thought to be funny but now when you watch them again you think "holy subtext!" because you know get the adults' point of view.

My theory is, to make up for this, to give the younger audience a kick, extra drama is stuffed into the story. Night in the Woods doesn't need cosmic horror. Dream Daddy doesn't need a dark, sinister cult, both games deliver a deep, relatable, satisfying narrative without this, but most likely not for all demographics (age-wise).

Younger kids, especially teens, will enjoy the diversity, the fluff, the different preferences of the whole cast, they'll get that Joseph's situation is tricky and sad, they'll get that how Brian and the main character act is childish, they'll get that Hugo and Damien have issues with their kids and their interests. Some might even get how Damien's conflict about "being true to himself" and "accepting his true full personality" and "trust your friends to accept you how you are" can easily be read as a metaphor for being trans.

But there's a good chance many won't get the complexity of some situations until they're older. Joseph, for example. He doesn't need a twisted cult-personality to be "less perfect". He already is kind of a jerk, even though he doesn't mean harm. He makes several stupid decisions that hurt his friends (Robert and the main character, most likely his wife). It's easy to see things black and white about Mary but like Joseph, she isn't a bad person, she and Joseph just manage to bring out the worst of each other as long as they're married. That's a real life tragedy, nobody is really evil, nobody can really win. Without writing a whole thesis about their relationship alone - these two aren't perfect characters, neither 100% pure nor evil, they make bad decisions that hurt and they've grown to be selfish when the other is concerned. That's enough for people who've gone through a sad, bad breakup that involved property and children or know someone who did.

That's enough drama. It's enough drama for all the characters and it's (mostly) well written and all that but I really assume by now that younger players understand this but it doesn't resonate as strongly with them as conflicts tailored for folks 25 and younger do.

To even this out - hey, have an evil cult as the big, dark twist! If that's the reason why it's there, okay, I get it, it makes sense. It's a bonus and an extra thrill to the slice-of-life narrative of the whole game. If it's just that, I'd find it funny (the game would kind of come with its own creepypasta. Ben Drowns, Sonic.exe, the whole bunch of stories about bloodthirsty Pokemon do not change the canon but are a funny addition).

However, I really, really hope this won't be the one true ending because that would destroy the otherwise really good writing.

Well, those are my thoughts about the whole thing. I apologize for any grammar and spelling mistakes, it's late, I need my bed, I'm not a native speaker and I don't even know where my glasses are right now. Thanks for reading! And please, don't give up on the game until we know for sure what kind of ending/route the cult is supposed to be. It might all be nothing but an unnecessary but harmless bonus content.

[bebravenow]

Has anyone actually found a way to get to this cult ending yet? Because if not I have a theory; part of the reason this game was delayed was someone on the team realizing that maaaaaybe this ending was out of place and counterproductive to the whole game. Then they tried to nix any path that leads to that ending. They didn't take the assets out because they were already dealing with too much on their plate and just tried to make sure you couldn't GET to that ending, not worrying about people messing around with the files.

Idk until there's a way to actually get to this ending I'm gonna take it as a dumb easter egg that will never, ever impact my actual play experience because I'm having fun right now and while I'm very sad that I can't run off into the sunset with Joseph, hey at least he's not evil!

[Quesadilla]

I agree completely. Joseph is my favorite dad and if this ending is true.. it kinda ruins the lighthearted feel of the game for me. I get that it could be a "secret", but I think there should at least be a good ending for Joseph.. I really really loved him :(