It's not bullet hell morons

[Wesleypipes77]

Stop tagging games as bullet hell that clearly are not, this is just a regular shmup whoever you dimwits are!

[Rainbow Robin]

I'd be inclined to agree, but I feel as if this discussion is pedantic.

We live in a society that keeps throwing around the term "Souls-like" as if it were candy, so I cannot get far too upset when someone calls a game with a lot of bullets a bullet hell.

[Trétoile]

While that game is very different from games like Touhou Project/ Cave's, you can't really deny the fact that there is influences/hommages from games that are definitively bullet hell games.

By the way : One of the word that the game's marketing used for describe it is "manic", you know, like in Manic Shooter. A term that is used on similar yet distinctables ways and meanings.

[Wesleypipes77]

Still, there are very clear differences between a shmup and a bullet hell. The reason why it aggravates me is because personally I enjoy a good shmup but I hate bullet hell games, and to my recollection after checking steam games for many years pretty much every single shmup is mislabelled as a bullet hell shooter. If it was now and then well whatever but when as a general rule people don't understand the difference that's ridiculous. It's like someone trying to say power metal and progressive metal are the same thing even though they are both "metal" one is awesome and the other makes my ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ears bleed.

[niconico]

My dear Wesley, would you care to enlighten us with your definition of that ridiculously dimwitted difference?

[Rainbow Robin]

Originally posted by niconico:

My dear Wesley, would you care to enlighten us with your definition of that ridiculously dimwitted difference?

I'll give it a shot, even if I'm not him. I'm inclined to agree with Wesley on this topic, even if I think arguing over it too much is silly.

Usually, a danmaku/bullet hell game is characterized by having a small, often well-marked, hitbox with an extremely high density of bullets. Moreover, dodging the bullets primarily relies on finesse and forethought rather than fast reflexes (although reflexes are necessary) - the bullet patterns are usually intricate. For example, Touhou is the canonical danmaku game.

A shmup in general need not have the above traits. For example, Geometry Wars 3D is rarely called a danmaku/bullet hell game, even though it is definitely a shmup!

If you suck at these games, then your natural definition of "bullet hell" would be "any game that is too hard for me" - the patterns would all feel intricate and detailed, and you would lack the finesse required to dodge through any real pattern. On the other hand, a highly skilled player might have a more strict definition of "bullet hell" than a novice would - perhaps going as far to call certain games "not bullet hell" even if the bullet density is absurd. The line between "bullet hell" and "not bullet hell" is a bit fuzzy, primarily for this reason.

Carelessly calling a lot of shmups "bullet hells" is a bit annoying to someone who has played enough of these games to have an opinion on where that line should be drawn, which is why Wesley is upset. To be blunt, I feel like it is unproductive and needlessly provocative to say that Wesley is being ridiculous in pointing out that there is a difference. Sure, it may be pedantic, but someone who has played these games for sufficiently long has probably earned the right to be pedantic.

[Zil / Tombas]

It's an interesting topic that I don't really see talked about much. This is a pretty random place to talk about it, but hey whatever.

Originally posted by Chromatic Vanilla:

often well-marked, hitbox

finesse and forethought rather than fast reflexes

For example, Touhou is the canonical danmaku game.

1. Very untrue, look at almost any arcade game.

2. True for basically all shmups, of any sort. Bullet hell, if anything, tends to use far more randomness than the classic "old-school memorizers".

3. I'd much sooner say Donpachi, which predates (and influenced) touhou, but honestly I'm not sure what "the canonical" danmaku game ought to be. It's definitely not touhou though.

To me, small hitboxes, 30+ bullets (give or take) on screen, and use of randomness are the core aspects of what I'd call bullet hell. Less important but common aspects are intricate scoring mechanics, bombs that make the player invincible, player shots autofiring in a continuous stream. This game fits the bill without question. If you think it doesn't then I'm wondering where you actually draw the line. Personally I think the average psikyo game flirts with the very edge of what can be called bullet hell. They have the bullet quantity but with biggish hitboxes and very little randomness.

[Nelle]

I'm happy that someone is angry enough about this to write a post here. Obviously people should not call every shmup a bullet hell.

I heard this sentence from someone, it's not technically clear but kind of neatly summarize the difference between shmups and shmups that are a bullet hell: in shmups you shoot 'em up, while in bullet hells you dodge 'em up.

With this sentence I could say it is based on what action the game tries to emphasize, and the player try to focus on most of the time.

[Wesleypipes77]

Originally posted by Clementinir:

I'm happy that someone is angry enough about this to write a post here. Obviously people should not call every shmup a bullet hell.

I heard this sentence from someone, it's not technically clear but kind of neatly summarize the difference between shmups and shmups that are a bullet hell: in shmups you shoot 'em up, while in bullet hells you dodge 'em up.

With this sentence I could say it is based on what action the game tries to emphasize, and the player try to focus on most of the time.

A simple and accurate summarization of the difference in concept. This isn't rocket science.

[Aya]

I'd say that this is closer to a bullet hell than a regular SHMUP to be honest. It definitely feels as if there are moments where more focus should be put on dodging over attacking and i'd say that it's a lot closer to Touhou (Hell, this game's based on TH09) than saaay Raptor: Call of the Shadows or Tyrian

[niconico]

Thanks a lot for the different insights regarding individual opinions upon that topic.

I would not consider it pendantic as having a topic you are passionate about is usually a good thing. Given you are more immersed into it due to interest and or skill you are likely to get an individual taste and thus become a little picky with things you want to spent your time with.

[No_Name_No_Money]

nice game. I played demo and enjoyed. This can be a very good party game.